CURRENT_MEETING_REPORT_

Reported by John Scudder/Merit

Minutes of the TCP/UDP over CLNP-Addressed Networks Working Group (TUBA)


Summary

  o Tasks
  o Documents to be moved to Proposed Standard or Informational
  o To-do list
  o Presentations


Tasks

  o David Piscitello and Brian Carpenter will present
    draft-ietf-tuba-sysids-01.txt to the ATM Forum.

  o Ross Callon will edit RFC 1237 (NSAP Allocation Guidelines) and
    send a note to the mailing list, before the next IETF.

  o Richard Colella and Bill Manning will edit TUBA DNS Internet-Draft
    for the next IETF.

  o 957x will be translated to ASCII text.  (Mark Knopper to work on
    doing this, Lyman Chapin, Yakov Rekhter and David Piscitello to
    provide raw dox.)

  o David Piscitello is changing 9542 to ASCII, Lyman 8473, Kunzinger
    has done 10747.  IS-IS and 957x need to be done.  All will be
    recommended as Proposed Standards and made available both in text
    and as PostScript.

  o Peter Ford and John Curran will write a transition document and
    notify the mailing list before the next IETF.

  o Dave Katz will edit EON RFC and recommend it as a Proposed
    Standard.

  o John Scudder will try out BSD/386 EON.

  o Ross was requested to write a paper on address translation and
    publish it as an Internet-Draft.

  o Mark has an outstanding item to write TUBA FAQ.



Documents to be Moved to Proposed Standard or Informational

  o CLNP for TUBA [draft-ietf-tuba-clnp-03.txt]
    Will be presented to the area director to be moved to Proposed
    Standard.

  o Sysids [draft-ietf-tuba-sysids-01.txt]
    Will be presented to the area director to be moved to Proposed
    Standard.  This is already how OSI hosts at Merit are addressed.
    It was suggested to present this to the ATM Forum---David
    Piscitello and Brian Carpenter will pursue this off-line.

  o NSAP Allocation Guidelines [RFC 1237]
    This document is currently a Proposed Standard.  Ross Callon
    suggests that it needs editing (and volunteers to do it, too).
    Ross will edit it, place it in the tuba-docs directory on
    merit.edu, and send a notice to the mailing list (maybe to the NOOP
    list too).
    RFC 1237 will be recommended to be moved to Draft Standard after
    editing is complete (before the next IETF).

  o FUBAR (FTP and UDP with Bigger Addresses)
    [draft-piscitello-ftp-bigports-01.txt, tuba-only version]
    TUBA and TP/IX implementations of FUBAR supposedly exist.
    There was quite a bit of discussion about problems with FUBAR and
    TUBA translating gateways.
    Some editing is needed on the document:  five-letter commands need
    to be changed to four-letter, and various frivolities need to be
    elided.  An appendix is to be written specifying use of FUBAR for
    TUBA.
    In the spirit of compromise between problems with FUBAR over
    translating gateways and the need for some specification for big
    address FTP, there was agreement to move for Experimental status
    now, to be reviewed at the next IETF and then moved to Proposed
    Standard.

  o DNS forward lookup (name ! NSAP lookup)
    There is a document for forward lookup only, no inverse lookup.
    RFC 1238 needs to be moved to Historical, since reverse lookup is
    ``broken.''  Inverse lookup has been implemented, but is very slow.
    There is a new Internet-Draft that does not include reverse lookup.
    Richard Colella and Bill Manning will edit the Internet-Draft for
    next time.  RFC 1238 will be left in place for now.
    A DNS guru volunteer is needed.  Richard is interested in working
    with this guru.
    This will be discussed in Wednesday's DNS meeting.

  o Routing and Addressing Architecture
    There is already such an architecture published in ISO 957x (David
    Piscitello or Dave Katz may know the real number).
    957x will be translated to ASCII text.  (Mark Knopper will work on
    doing this, Lyman Chapin, Yakov Rekhter and David Piscitello will
    provide a raw document.)
    David Piscitello is changing 9542 to ASCII, Lyman is changing 8473,
    and Kunzinger has changed 10747.  IS-IS and 957x need to be done.
    All will be recommended as Proposed Standards and made available
    both in ASCII and PostScript.
    Relevant ISO documents are available (in PostScript) for anonymous
    FTP from merit.edu.

  o EON
    Will be recommended as a Proposed Standard.



To-do List

  o DNS inverse lookup (mentioned above)

  o Transition plan

    To be discussed at the next meeting.  Some anxiety was expressed
    that the plan needs to be finished well before the next IETF.
    Peter Ford and John Curran are working on a transition plan.
    A rough transition outline is:

         Dual-stacked hosts
         CLNP in routers
         CLNP over IP infrastructure
         IP over CLNP infrastructure


    This segued into a discussion of the existing infrastructure, which
    led to discussion of EON: the EON RFC (RFC 1070) is still in
    Experimental status.  There was some discussion about whether
    changes to EON are needed and worthwhile.  Dave Katz volunteered to
    edit it and recommend it as a Proposed Standard.  John Scudder will
    try out EON in BSD/386.
    It might also be useful to have an IP in CLNP tunneling documents.

  o Mobile hosts:  Yakov Rekhter commented that TUBA will adopt
    whatever the Internet community decides on for IP.

  o Formulate RFC 1380 responses.

  o Working groups we have/want liaison with:  DNS, FTP, ATM, RARE,
    NOOP, and any working groups arising from the OSIEXTND BOF.



Presentations


Autoconfiguration ``a la'' DEC (Chris Gunner)

NSAP structure:


       |-Area Address---------|-ID-------|-SEL-|
        <------n octets------> <-6 oct--> <-1->


  o Routers are configured (by hand) with area addresses
  o End-systems ``know'' their IDs (e.g.  MAC address) and ``know''
    SEL(s)
  o Routers send IS hellos (ISO 9542) with NET (NSAP)
  o End-systems receive IS Hello and:

     -  Extract area address
     -  Create NSAP(s) (area address + ID + SEL(s))
     -  Send ES Hello(s) with NSAP(s)


The migration to new area addresses is said to be pretty easy since an
end-system can have both an ``old area'' and a ``new area'' NSAP.

Named objects, e.g.  ``node'' (system), may have protocol ``stack''
attribute information, e.g.:  (in DEC DNS)


       +---------------+     +-------------+
       | Upper Layers  | ==> | SNMP        |
       | CLNP, NSAP(s) |     | UDP, Port # |
       +---------------+     | CLNP, NSAPs |
                             +-------------+


When an end system's NSAP(s) change:


  o Update naming service entry for objects for that system
  o Requires name service protocol to do update
  o System needs to have write access to these objects


This is basically a way for end-systems to update the DNS automatically
when their addresses change.  There was some concern of how to do this
in the current DNS---Yakov commented that when standard IP DNS knows how
to do this, TUBA will adopt it unchanged.

Issues:


  o Frequency of updates

  o Update failure -- e.g.  no write access -- requires manual DNS
    override ability

  o System state information about interaction with name service
    (transient failures)



Multicast (Dave Katz)


  o Group NSAP addresses hack
    Parallel AFI space (10-99 ! A0-F9) (since AFI is in BCD)

     -  Synactically distinct but parallel space
     -  Hierarchy possible (unlike IP multicast space)

  o CLNP

     -  Multicast Data (MD) PDU
        Distinct from DT PDU
     -  Scope control options?  (``I want this packet to go only this
        many administrative hops.'')

  o ES-IS

     -  NSAP ! SNPA dynamic binding
     -  Group membership announcement
     -  Extra unicast hop -- if you want to send multicast, you unicast
        your packet to an IS which then forwards it appropriately.  You
        never get a redirect to start multicasting on the LAN.

  o IS-IS

     -  Could be changed to be MOSPF-like
     -  No active work

  o IDRP
    No work yet

  o For more information see OSI Extensions for use in the Internet BOF


ES-IS Address Administration (Dave Katz)

See ES-IS second edition.  PostScript file on merit.edu.


       ES                             IS
       --------                     --------
       "who am I?"      --->
       (to ask for an
       address)
                             <---    "You are foo" (for 18 hours)
                             <---    "You are bar"
                                     (offers some addresses, guaranteed
                                     to be reserved for ES for holding
                                     timer duration)
       "I am bar" (ESH) --->
       (to notify IS of
       who ES has decided
       to be, incl holding
       time of up to 18
       hours)


Issues:


  o May not really want automatic assignment (security concerns)

  o IS does not know some host information (e.g., IP address)---it
    might be nice to provide this input to construct the NSAP (or MAC
    address, other host-specific info)

  o How can we deny service to undesired hosts?  (e.g., send an
    end-system a bogus address to ``shut him up''


Attendees

Nick Alfano              [email protected]
James Allard             [email protected]
Bernt Allonen            [email protected]
Josee Auber              [email protected]
Anders Baardsgaad        [email protected]
John Ballard             [email protected]
Rebecca Bostwick         [email protected]
Jim Bound                [email protected]
Thomas Brunner           [email protected]
Ross Callon              [email protected]
Brian Carpenter          [email protected]
George Chang             [email protected]
Richard Colella          [email protected]
David Conrad             [email protected]
Tim Dixon                [email protected]
Kurt Dobbins             [email protected]
Jeffrey Dunn             [email protected]
Francis Dupont           [email protected]
Dino Farinacci           [email protected]
Stefan Fassbender        [email protected]
Eric Fleischman          [email protected]
Osten Franberg           [email protected]
Peter Furniss            [email protected]
Eugene Geer              [email protected]
David Ginsburg           [email protected]
Chris Gunner             [email protected]
Patrick Hanel            [email protected]
Susan Hares              [email protected]
Denise Heagerty          [email protected]
Jack Houldsworth         [email protected]
Chris Howard             [email protected]
Geoff Huston             [email protected]
Phil Irey                [email protected]
David Jacobson           [email protected]
J. Jensen                [email protected]
Thomas Johannsen         [email protected]
Dale Johnson             [email protected]
Philip Jones             [email protected]
Cyndi Jung               [email protected]
Anders Karlsson          [email protected]
Daniel Karrenberg        [email protected]
Frank Kastenholz         [email protected]
Dave Katz                [email protected]
Peter Kaufmann           [email protected]
Mark Knopper             [email protected]
Ton Koelman              [email protected]
Tony Li                  [email protected]
Susan Lin                [email protected]
Robin Littlefield        [email protected]
Bill Manning             [email protected]
David Marlow             [email protected]
Cynthia Martin           [email protected]
Peter Merdian            [email protected]
Jun Murai                [email protected]
Peder Chr.  Noergaard    [email protected]
Masataka Ohta            [email protected]
Andrew Partan            [email protected]
David Piscitello         [email protected]
Willi Porten             [email protected]
Aiko Pras                [email protected]
Juergen Rauschenbach     [email protected]
Alex Reijnierse          [email protected]
Victor Reijs             [email protected]
Yakov Rekhter            [email protected]
Robert Reschly           [email protected]
Georg Richter            [email protected]
Luc Rooijakkers          [email protected]
Henry Sanders            [email protected]
John Scudder             [email protected]
Keith Sklower            [email protected]
Michael St.  Johns       [email protected]
Henk Steenman            [email protected]
Vladimir Sukonnik        [email protected]
Fumio Teraoka            [email protected]
Kamlesh Tewani           [email protected]
Richard Thomas           [email protected]
Paul Traina              [email protected]
Antoine Trannoy          [email protected]
Willem van der Scheun    [email protected]
Marcel Wiget             [email protected]
Kirk Williams            [email protected]
Sam Wilson               [email protected]
Noriko Yokokawa          [email protected]
Jessica Yu               [email protected]
James Zmuda              [email protected]
Romeo Zwart              [email protected]

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