Subj : WWIII
To : BOB KLAHN
From : Lee Lofaso
Date : Sat Jul 05 2014 10:36 pm
Hello Bob,
BOB KLAHN -> ALEXANDER KORYAGIN brought next idea :
BK> Without true freedom of speech and the press no one can have any
BK> idea what is going on in Russia. However, any govt that puts a
BK> woman's music group in prison for protest songs, and for a long
BK> time, is not a govt I believe is honest.
And what, pray tell, might "true freedom of speech and the press"
be? Certainly we do not have that here, in the good old U.S. of A.
So how can you say or even suggest that Russia is any worse of a
country than we are when it comes to such matters?
In regards to Pussy Riot, those girls were not imprisoned because
of the music (if one can call it that) they played. They desecrated
a church. Try doing that in a church in America and see how long
it takes for the men in blue to come pick your sorry ass up. The
congregation would applaud the cops and invite them all to dinner.
BK>>> I wonder about that. I wonder if, maybe, he's got it backwards. I
BK>>> wonder if the result of doing nothing might not be what leads to
BK>>> the war nobody wants.
BK>>> We have long been told that Hitler might have been stopped,
BK>>> probably would have been stopped, if the other nations had stepped
BK>>> in with his first aggression against the Sudentenland, against
BK>>> Austria, against those who could not defend themselves.
BK>>> What makes anyone think Putin is any less than Hitler?
AK>> Your words are a twaddle unless you see the columns of
AK>> Russian tanks and troops marching along the Ukraine roads.
BK> Once that happens it's too late. What we do know is those troops
BK> and tanks were massed on the Ukraine border, but have recently
BK> been withdrawn.
We invaded Mexico and annexed half their country as our own.
We also invaded the Kingdom of Hawai'i and annexed that entire
country as our own. At least we bought Alaska fair and square
from the Russians rather than taking it by force ...
BK> What Putin has accomplished is to give the former Soviet states
BK> reason to believe he is trying to reconstitute the Soviet Union.
BK> That gives them reason to ask for more US military aid,
BK> including the anti-missile systems that had been canceled a few
BK> years ago.
President Putin is not interested in resurrecting the former
Soviet Union. He was nothing more than a lowly clerk in the KGB
during those halcyon days, and not a very well-paid one at that.
Being Top Dog in the new Russia with all the pretty girls begging
him for favors is much more his style.
A return to the Cold War is not in Putin's (or Russia's) best
interest. Putin knows this. So do the Russian people, as well
as all of Europe.
What Putin wants is for Europe to remain divided, rather than
for Europe to unite in a tightly knit European Union. Putin has
allies in Europe who are with him on this. And it is with those
allies that Putin will seek to make deals, or at least use them
to gain influence with others.
AK>> Who told you that countries cannot split up? Why do you
AK>> think that Ukraine cannot split like Yugoslavia,
AK>> Czechoslovakia?
BK> I have no problem with countries splitting up. What I do have is
BK> when one portion wants to secede, and the reports are of masked
BK> gunmen patrolling the cities. If they are legitimate, why are
BK> they masked?
Abraham Lincoln had no problem with slavery, but did have a big
problem with countries splitting up. In fact, he had so much of
a problem he started a war ...
BK> If the people who live there want to split off, I don't have a
BK> problem with that. I do have a problem with it being done by
BK> masked gunmen.
President Jefferson Davis never wore a mask. Neither did
General Robert E. Lee ...
AK>> It is not pro-Russian forces are fighting
AK>> in eastern Ukraine. It is the Russian people who always
AK>> lived there, in eastern and southern Ukraine, and they were
AK>> extremely insulted when pro-western rebels removed their
AK>> candidate (Yanukovich, who won democratic elections) from
AK>> power.
BK> Being insulted is not ground for shooting up the place, and
BK> killing people. It is not grounds for seizing power. Now, how
BK> many Russian people live there? And why are Russians living in
BK> Ukraine and claiming the right to decide who rules the country?
It all ccmes down to one basic question - "What do the people want?"
And most people in Crimea consider themselves as being Russian.
--Lee
AK>> Rebels in Kiev were minority, but they captured
AK>> power by force, violating all democratic institutions and
AK>> election results.
BK> By force? It seems most of the force was used against them.
BK> According to what I have seen, the constitution was rewritten
BK> after Yonukovych took power, not by a constitutional convention
BK> or such, but by the courts. The protestors started out demanding
BK> the previous constitution be reinstated.
BK> ----------------------------------------------------------------
BK>
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-25182830
BK> But it was the deaths of at least 88 people, many of them
BK> protesters shot dead by uniformed snipers in 48 hours of
BK> bloodshed, that ultimately brought him down.
BK> ----------------------------------------------------------------
AK>> Putin is not Hiller, just because Russia is not a fascist
AK>> Germany.
AK>> Russia doesn't want to rule over the world and
AK>> topple those governments it doesn't like. It is somebody
AK>> else.
BK> Russia maybe not, Putin I'm not so sure of.
BK>>> When Obama declared he was pulling our troops out of Afghanistan
BK>>> and Iraq the Republicans ranted and raved about how no one would
BK> ...
AK>> It easy to explain. When you conquer a country _by military
AK>> invasion_ you, as a rule, can find collaborators only among
AK>> bastards, traitors and thieves. So, it is no wonder when
BK> Afghanistan was the base for the 9-11 attack. Iraq was a war for
BK> oil. We should have been out of Afghanistan quickly, and never
BK> in Iraq. I was talking about the republican reaction to a screw
BK> up series of wars, vs doing nothing or something now.
BK> ...
BK>>> No matter what the status of the Ukraine and it's government,
BK>>> Russia is clearly an outside invader. Failing to come to their aid
BK>>> would be a clear sign to Putin that the West really is too weak to
BK>>> stop him. Not too militarily weak, on that we outweigh them in
BK>>> spade, but too weak morally.
AK>> It is not correct. Ask people from Israel or the US what an
AK>> invasion looks like. So far you can't tell of Russian
AK>> "invasion". People must be very accurate in such things.
BK> Putin has backed off. However, it certainly appeared he wanted
BK> to cut the Ukraine up.
BK>
http://tinyurl.com/lsgsoqd
BK> washingtonpost
BK> ousted-ukraine-president-warns-of-civil-war-criticizes-us-for-
BK> aiding-current-government
BK> Yanukovych last appeared in public Feb. 28, in a news
BK> conference also in Rostov, when he asserted he was still the
BK> legal president of Ukraine and that he was not calling upon
BK> Russia to intervene militarily.
BK> The next day, Russia's parliament authorized President Vladimir
BK> Putin to send troops into Ukraine, and soon thereafter Russia
BK> asserted that Yanukovych had requested the intervention the day
BK> after he spoke to the press.
BK> ...
BK> Ousted Ukraine president warns of civil war, criticizes U.S.
BK> for aiding current government
BK> ...
BK> "The cities are being patrolled by masked gunmen," Yanukovych
BK> said in a statement to the press in the southern Russian city
BK> of Rostov-on-Don.
BK> Yanukovych, who read from a statement in Russian and did not
BK> take questions, accused the West and the United States of
BK> backing fascists in Ukraine - another regular allegation being
BK> made by Russian authorities.
BK> ...
BK> On March 6, after gunmen took over the parliament building in
BK> the Crimean regional capital, Simferopol, a pro-Russian
BK> leadership was installed. Then the regional parliament voted
BK> behind closed doors for Crimea to leave Ukraine and join
BK> Russia, setting a referendum for Sunday to validate their
BK> decision.
BK> Some links to look at.
BK> Wall street journal
BK>
http://tinyurl.com/ohlh6ys
BK>
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27633117
BK>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Ukrainian_revolution
BK> BOB KLAHN
[email protected] http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn
BK> .. I'm not lost -- I'm "locationally challenged"
BK> --- Via Silver Xpress V4.5/P [Reg]
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