Subj : Re: Penruddock and Lowther
To : All
From : Venelow
Date : Thu Sep 06 2018 11:14 pm
From: Venelow <
[email protected]>
On Tuesday, September 4, 2018 at 8:49:08 PM UTC-4,
[email protected] w=
rote:
> On Wednesday, 5 September 2018 00:31:51 UTC+1, Venelow wrote:
> > On Sunday, September 2, 2018 at 5:39:07 PM UTC-4, John Higgins wrote:
> > > On Saturday, September 1, 2018 at 8:53:53 PM UTC-7, Venelow wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, September 1, 2018 at 3:19:45 PM UTC-4, Venelow wrote:
> > > > > Hi Medievalists
> > > > >
> > > > > I am researching family history and am now on unfamiliar ground. =
A family tree provided by a professional genealogist many years ago links t=
o the Penruddock family through Mary the daughter of Sir Edward and Mary (M=
assey) who married Stephen Bowman. The information about the Penruddocks en=
ds with Robert P. of Arkelby, Cumberland who is said to have married Agnes =
the dau. and h. of Sir William Leigh and his father Thomas P. said to have =
married Agnes Lowther the daughter of Sir John Lowther of Westmorland.
> > > > >
> > > > > This information appears to have come from Crisp's Visitations. T=
here are no dates attached to Robert or Thomas. I have worked out that Agn=
es Leigh was the daughter of Sir William Leigh who died in 1439 leaving an =
heir who was still in their minority. This comes from his father's (also Si=
r William Leigh) entry in the History of Parliament series about early M.Ps=
..
> > > > >
> > > > > It appears that Agnes Leigh's parents were William Leigh and Isob=
el Lowther and they married in 1424. Isobel was one of the daughters of Rob=
ert Lowther and Margaret Strickland and Robert was the son of Sir John Lowt=
her and Maud/Margaret Preston. (Rev. C.M. Lowther Bouch CW2 48 p122)
> > > > >
> > > > > I have not been able to find a daughter of Sir John Lowther calle=
d Agnes and the chronology seems to be a bit off. I did find a Thomas Penru=
ddock was a witness to the nuncupative will of Robert Lowther dated 17 Marc=
h 1429/30. If this is the same Thomas Penruddock (father of Robert) then it=
does appear that the two families were well acquainted if not actually rel=
ated by marriage at that date.
> > > > >
> > > > > If Thomas Penruddock did marry a daughter of Sir John Lowther the=
n Robert's mother would be his wife's great aunt and Robert and Agnes would=
be first cousins once removed.
> > > > > Does anyone have any information about Agnes Lowther or confirmat=
ion of who Thomas Penruddock of Arkelby married?
> > > > >
> > > > > Any insight into this problem gratefully recieved. Thanks for rea=
ding.
> > > > >
> > > > > Venelow
> > > > > Canada
> > > >
> > > > Thank you John. I knew about the Owen book but did not know it was =
available online. However the information in it has thrown up more problems=
with the Penruddock tree as presented in the Visitations of England and Wa=
les Vol 4 1902 by Frederick Arthur Crisp.
> > > > That shows Edward Penruddock of Arkelby who died before 27 Sept 156=
0 husband of Elizabeth Highmore. His father Robert P. of Arkelby husband of=
Agnes Leigh dau and h. of William Leigh and his father Thomas P. husband o=
f Agnes Lowther.
> > > >
> > > > In the Owen book the Agnes Lowther and Thomas Penruddock marriage i=
s some generations after the William Leigh Isobel marriage instead of being=
before. It seems the "Professional Genealogist" of approx.60 to 70 years a=
go was not very diligent. This is not the first time I have found the infor=
mation provided in this tree to be inaccurate. Back to the drawing board <s=
igh>
> > > >
> > > > If anyone has credible information on the Penruddocks from Sir Geor=
ge of Ivy Church, Wilts M.P. for Salisbury 1552/3 back into Cumberland I wo=
uld be grateful to receive it.
> > > >
> > > > Many thanks.
> > > > Venelow
> > > > Canada
> > >
> > > I think the problem here may lie not in the family of Penrudduck, but=
rather in the family of Leigh of Isell =E2=80=93 and specifically in the i=
dentification of the Sir William Leigh whose daughter Agnes married Robert =
Penruddock of Arkelby.
> > >
> > > I'm not aware of any good pedigree of the family, but it seem=
s that there were five Williams in succession in the late 14th century and =
throughout the 15th century. The family continued to produce MPs for Cumbe=
rland as late as the reign of Elizabeth I, but the connection of the later =
Leighs to the earlier ones is not very clear.
> > >
> > > The five Williams seem to have been easily confused by various author=
s (including which one served as MP at which times), but this is what I=E2=
=80=99ve been able to piece together from Roskell's HOP 1386-1421, =
Wedgwood's HOP 1439-1509, and various articles (not always accurate=
) in Transactions of the Cumberland & Westmorland Antiquarian & Archaeologi=
cal Society.
> > >
> > > 1. William Leigh (living 1394); m. Katherine NN
> > > 2. Sir William Leigh (d. 1428), MP various times between 1399 and 141=
9; m. Agnes, dau. of Sir Clement Skelton
> > > 3. Sir William Leigh (aged 40 [or 34?] at father's death, d. =
1439), MP 1433 [or 1423?]; m. Isabel, dau. of Sir Robert Lowther
> > > 4. Sir William Leigh (beheaded 1462), MP 1459
> > > 5. Sir William Leigh, Sheriff of Cumberland 1469; m. Elizabeth, dau. =
of John Hudleston (m. (2) Sir Edward Redman)
> > >
> > > I can presently find no later William Leigh, but that doesn't=
mean there wasn't one. Based on this construction, however, I=E2=
=80=99d suggest that Agnes Leigh who married Robert Penruddock was probably=
not the daughter of the Sir William Leigh who married Agnes Lowther. It=
's more likely, but definitely not certain, that she was the daught=
er of the last known Sir William Leigh, Sheriff in 1469. The chronology he=
re is better than the alternative, but it's not great. Perhaps the=
Penruddock pedigrees simply mis-identified the name of Agnes Leigh=E2=80=
=99s father - maybe he wasn't a William at all.
> >
> >
> > Hi Again John
> >
> > Thank you for your reply re Sir William Leigh (Legh Lee, Ley etc.). I s=
pent last weekend looking for more information on the Leighs and found a tr=
ee online that stated the son of Sir William Leigh (II) had a son called W=
illiam who married Elizabeth Hudleston. So I was already suspecting my theo=
ry that the heir who was a minor when Sir William II died in 1439, referred=
to in the History of Parliament biography of his father William I, was no=
t a daughter called Agnes. It had looked most promising especially as the =
pedigree states she was the hieress of Sir William Leigh and she appeared t=
o be called after her grandmother Agnes Skelton. I agree that since the nam=
e Leigh Lee etc is so profilic there could be an error as to his first name=
..
> >
> > I have also been looking at the information from Hugh Owen's bo=
ok that Agnes Lowther the daughter of Sir John Lowther c. 1487 =E2=80=93 1=
553 was the Agnes that married Thomas Penruddock. This information is in C=
hapter 5 on page 58. There is a source note number 13 on p. 418 which refe=
rences Sir John's will as a source for his wife Lucy surviving him.=
Then adds =E2=80=9CFor Thomas Penruddock see Harleian Society Vol 10 p.148=
Wiltshire Visitations 1623.=E2=80=9D
> >
> > I managed to track down Sir John's Will of 1552 and there is no=
mention of Agnes or any Penruddock grandchildren. I could not find the Vo=
l 10 version of the Wiltshire Visitations of 1623 but I did find other edit=
ions. One edited by George W Marshall p.66 =E2=80=93 67 does not mention Th=
omas Penruddock and Agnes Lowther but starts with Sir George Penruddock and=
Elizabeth Apryce and mentions that his father was Edward of Arkelby. Anot=
her version published in 1828 starts with George Penruddock son of Edward o=
f Arkleby and completely misses his son Edward who married Mary Massey and =
proceeds with his grandson John who who married Joan Mead.
> >
> > The Wiltshire Visitations of 1565 and the Cumberland Visitations of 161=
3 do start with Thomas Penruddock and Agnes Lowther but no dates are mentio=
ned. I assume the Vol 10 version of 1623 includes the earlier information.
> >
> > There is a drawing of the Penruddock Arms in the 1613 Visitations. The =
arms were granted to George Penruddock in 1548. The six annulets of the Lo=
wther family feature in the bottom left quarter. I don't know what the othe=
r two quarters are.
> >
> > Guess I'll just keep digging. Thank you for taking the time to answer.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Venelow
> > Canada
>
> Just a thought that probably isn't very helpful. Roy Hudleston did a lot =
of work on Cumbrian families and I'm not sure how much has been published b=
eyond 'Cumberland Families & Heraldry'. He donated all his papers to Durham=
University, so it might be worth contacting their archivist.
>
>
http://reed.dur.ac.uk/xtf/view?docId
ark/32150_s1mk61rg99c.xml&toc.id=
>
> Chris
Hi Chris
Thank you for that information. In trying to work out if there is a Lowther=
or Leigh connection I am trying to find out about the Penruddock coat of a=
rms which was, according to his biography on the History of Parliament site=
, granted in 1548. This was twenty years before he was knighted in 1568. He=
died in 1581 and in the Visitations of Cumberland 1615 the coat of arms is=
quartered with the arms of Sandford, Lowther and either Lumley or Thweng? =
The editor is not sure.
I found the fourth quarter in the Visitation of Yorkshire, 1564 as belongin=
g to the Aslakeby (or Aslaby) family but there is a Thweng mentioned in the=
pedigree.
The Sandford pedigree was also in the Yorks 1564. No mention of any Penrudd=
ocks in these pedigrees. Sir George's father Edward d.c. 1560 is said to ha=
ve married Elizabeth Highmoor and there is a Sandford in the Highmore pedig=
ree but no suitable candidate to be the Elizabeth married to Edward.
So I am interested as to how these additions to the Penruddock arms came ab=
out.
I guess I have to find a copy of Roy Hudleston's book and see if they are m=
entioned.
Thanks for responding.
Venelow
Canada
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