WEBVTT
Kind: captions
Language: en
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♪♪
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♪♪
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-Forget the politics,
we have a national crisis.
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We are at war.
There is no politics.
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-So our news cycle is changing,
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if not daily,
then hourly or by the minute.
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And there's so much
information out there today,
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and it's difficult to navigate
the waters of the news.
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-Over 2,980 deaths.
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-It was another rough day
for the financial markets.
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-They're going to do
a 30-day extension.
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-Over 4,700 deaths...
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-...which means
another month of this.
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-So one of the things
I want to do is
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talk to some of the biggest
thinkers in the world and say,
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"Hey, what are these problems,
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and what are
the unforeseen consequences
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of what's happening
in real time?"
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-We have entered into
this next phase
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that has required me,
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under
the circumstances,
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to advance
a proclamation
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of a state of emergency
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in the state of California.
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-Now, one of the biggest
questions is,
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all of these emergency measures,
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all of the data collection
to sort of say,
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"Well, what's happening
with the pandemic?"
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have knock-on effects.
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And I think one of
the greatest thinkers
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around civil liberties
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and these unforeseen
consequences
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is Edward Snowden.
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-This is the truth.
This is what's happening.
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You should decide whether
we need to be doing this.
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-So today we're going to
talk to him
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about his thoughts
on the COVID virus
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as well as, what does that mean
for our civil liberties?
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Edward Snowden,
thanks for being here today.
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-It's a pleasure to be with you.
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-Let's just jump into it.
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-Why does it seem like
we're so ill-prepared?
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We're acting like COVID-19
is a never-seen-before virus
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and that this is
just out of nowhere,
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surprise, surprise.
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You know, we had SARS,
we had MERS.
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We've had these types
of things before,
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and in fact, we knew
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that we were going
to be having more of them,
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yet we were not set up,
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or it seems like
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we were completely taken aback
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that this is happening now
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and is having, you know,
such a profound effect,
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when, if you talk to any
epidemiologist or virologist,
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they knew that
this was going to happen.
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-There is nothing more
foreseeable
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as a public health crisis
for, you know, again,
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a world where we are just
living on top of each other
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in crowded and polluted cities
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than a pandemic.
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And yeah, every academic,
every researcher
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who's looked at this
knew this was coming.
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And in fact,
even intelligence agencies,
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I can tell you firsthand because
I used to read the reports,
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had been planning
for pandemics.
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And yet when we needed it,
the system has now failed us,
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and it has failed us
comprehensively.
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And the thing that I find
grotesque about this situation
00:03:16.096 --> 00:03:18.131
is that now the people
who are being asked
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to sacrifice the most
are the people
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who are in the most
precarious positions,
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who have the least to give.
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We're constantly being told
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we're the richest country
in the world.
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But when people start
losing their jobs,
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when rents become
difficult to pay
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because there's no work for
any waitress in any restaurant
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in New York right now,
where are our resources?
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When our hospitals say
they need ventilators,
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you know, where is
all this great technology
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that's being used to surveil
everybody, you know,
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down to the tiniest toenail
when we need it to create things
00:03:54.701 --> 00:03:56.837
that actually save lives?
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-In South Korea,
which has been successful
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in at least flattening
their curve,
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the government's been
sending text messages
00:04:06.847 --> 00:04:09.850
to people who have come
into contact with people
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that they know have COVID-19,
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which means they know
who has COVID-19,
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they know who they're meeting,
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they know their
text message numbers.
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They know how to get in touch
with them.
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-The Korea Centers for Disease
Control and Prevention uses data
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provided by local
telecommunications companies.
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-Taiwan is doing
a "mobile fence," so-called,
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where, if they know
you're infected,
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they're going to put
a mobile fence around you,
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and if you leave,
you're going to get in trouble.
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If you leave your --
It's basically the --
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your mobile phone
is your new ankle bracelet.
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You know, we look
at what China did,
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including welding
certain doors shut,
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and we seem to be
sort of knee-jerk, ad hoc,
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and we're, you know,
culturally we can't do this,
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yet are our numbers
are through the roof.
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So are autocratic regimes better
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at dealing with things like this
than democratic ones?
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-I don't think so. I mean,
there are arguments being made
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that China can do things
that the United States can't.
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Now, that doesn't mean
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that what these autocratic
countries are doing
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is actually more effective.
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There are really only two things
that we know to be true.
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One is that no one knows
the true number of infected
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because we can only
in the absolute best case
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know the confirmed cases
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of people
that we've actually tested.
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And once you start to layer in
this autocratic,
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or I would argue,
more authoritarian type
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of policy structure,
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what you end up seeing
is that instead of policy
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being guided
by science and facts,
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you begin to see things
like information releases
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becoming political decisions.
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Now, this is not new.
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In fact, the Spanish flu
around 1918
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did not actually originate
in Spain.
00:06:05.565 --> 00:06:07.968
It was actually spreading
in World War I
00:06:07.968 --> 00:06:09.769
through the trenches,
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where everybody
was in terrible conditions.
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But the militaries of the day
had imposed restrictions
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on what the press could report
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that could impact
the war effort.
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And so Spain,
being a neutral country,
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was publishing
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what they were actually
seeing in their country.
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And so we just presumed,
because they were the only ones
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that were telling the truth,
that it came from them.
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Now we're a little further ahead
than that today.
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But that doesn't erase the fact
that people in power
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who see that there is
a political advantage
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to disguising
or concealing or massaging
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or denying numbers
may choose to lie about it.
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It's happened before and it's
almost certainly happening now.
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-If you're looking
at countries like China,
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which seems to have flattened,
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how much can we trust that
those numbers are actually true?
00:07:01.388 --> 00:07:02.756
-I don't think we can.
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Particularly, we see
the Chinese government recently
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working to expel
Western journalists
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at precisely this moment
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where we need credible
independent reporting
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from this kind of region.
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And then there's all of these
rumors and initial reports
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that say things like, you know,
the number of urns shipments
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for burials have
gone way up,
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way beyond what you would expect
from the official numbers.
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And the fact that we cannot
get independent verification
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of the facts gives us reason
to doubt the official story.
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And the reality
that we need to accept,
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which is
an uncomfortable reality,
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is that even in places
that are not autocratic regimes,
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they're going to have
a second wave.
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They're going to have
a third wave.
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They're going to have
a fourth wave based on all of
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the best medical analysis
that we have available today.
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I think -- I was reading
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a paper this morning
that was from,
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I think, that the Chan School
of Public Health
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at -- I think it was
Harvard University
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that said pumping the brakes
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is going to have to be
the new strategy.
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-Which means we're at
the beginning of, as you say,
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you know, second, third,
fourth waves of this coming.
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And so all of these measures
are going to get more severe.
00:08:18.298 --> 00:08:22.602
And what then happens
to civil liberties,
00:08:22.602 --> 00:08:25.638
to privacy rights, to democracy?
00:08:25.638 --> 00:08:28.341
I mean, what are the knock-on
effects that you can see?
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-I mean, this is really
the central question
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of this moment in history.
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What we see is everyone
is fearful and hopeless
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and so worried about today
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that we have
really stopped thinking
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about what tomorrow
will look like
00:08:45.592 --> 00:08:48.528
as a result of the decisions
that we take today.
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We've seen in countries
like Taiwan and South Korea
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and spreading also
into more Western countries,
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and of course,
in the United States,
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where it has begun as well,
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the tracking and monitoring
of the movements
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of the whole
of the human population
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through the movements
of our phones.
00:09:06.713 --> 00:09:08.782
And it is, I think,
00:09:08.782 --> 00:09:11.251
something that should
raise cause for concern,
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because when we talk
about the applications,
00:09:13.186 --> 00:09:14.621
and I'm sure we will,
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they're saying they're using it
for contact tracing.
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This person gets sick.
Where did they go?
00:09:19.459 --> 00:09:22.262
Who may they come
in contact with precisely
00:09:22.262 --> 00:09:24.998
so they can produce
these kind of text messages
00:09:24.998 --> 00:09:26.366
that you describe?
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On its face, it seems like
it might be a good idea.
00:09:29.969 --> 00:09:33.973
There is, of course,
a natural presumed benefit here.
00:09:33.973 --> 00:09:37.110
And yet, this level
of contact tracing,
00:09:37.110 --> 00:09:40.780
this method of contact tracing
does not really work
00:09:40.780 --> 00:09:43.149
on a pandemic scale.
00:09:43.149 --> 00:09:45.418
-You know, we're declaring,
you know,
00:09:45.418 --> 00:09:47.987
various states
of emergencies here and there,
00:09:47.987 --> 00:09:50.156
but these have sweeping powers.
00:09:50.156 --> 00:09:54.794
-What is being built is
the architecture of oppression.
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♪♪
00:10:04.904 --> 00:10:07.307
-So when we look at South Korea,
00:10:07.307 --> 00:10:09.509
when we look at China,
00:10:09.509 --> 00:10:12.979
when we look at, you know,
Taiwan, Singapore,
00:10:12.979 --> 00:10:16.616
countries like this,
now America,
00:10:16.616 --> 00:10:20.086
there's all of this data
being collected.
00:10:20.086 --> 00:10:24.224
How are the government --
So when, in in South Korea,
00:10:24.224 --> 00:10:25.692
I get a text saying,
00:10:25.692 --> 00:10:29.662
"Oh, you met Joe Blow.
He might be infected.
00:10:29.662 --> 00:10:32.499
You should, you know,
sequester yourself for 14 days."
00:10:32.499 --> 00:10:34.100
How are they getting that data?
00:10:34.100 --> 00:10:36.135
-[ Laughs ]
That's a good question.
00:10:36.135 --> 00:10:37.604
I mean, that's really the one
00:10:37.604 --> 00:10:39.806
that should make everyone
just look at their phone
00:10:39.806 --> 00:10:42.542
and, you know,
sort of raise an eyebrow.
00:10:42.542 --> 00:10:45.245
There are a number of ways that
you can track the location
00:10:45.245 --> 00:10:47.380
of someone through their phone.
00:10:47.380 --> 00:10:50.049
There are these cell phone
towers themselves,
00:10:50.049 --> 00:10:53.186
but there's also
the wireless network
00:10:53.186 --> 00:10:54.787
that you're connected to.
00:10:54.787 --> 00:10:57.423
And then what other wireless
networks around you
00:10:57.423 --> 00:10:59.025
that you're not connected to --
00:10:59.025 --> 00:11:02.061
this you can think of as
what wireless networks
00:11:02.061 --> 00:11:04.163
your phone can hear.
00:11:04.163 --> 00:11:07.934
And so these wireless network
identifiers are then collected
00:11:07.934 --> 00:11:10.470
and they're mapped out
against GPS,
00:11:10.470 --> 00:11:14.407
and then they know
if you can see mom's Wi-fi
00:11:14.407 --> 00:11:17.810
and neighbor Ted's Wi-fi
and the library Wi-fi
00:11:17.810 --> 00:11:20.180
all at the same time,
00:11:20.180 --> 00:11:22.615
you have to be within range
of these things.
00:11:22.615 --> 00:11:25.118
It becomes a proxy for location.
00:11:25.118 --> 00:11:27.854
Now that we know
all of our phones
00:11:27.854 --> 00:11:30.657
can and are being tracked
at all times
00:11:30.657 --> 00:11:33.026
just by being turned on --
00:11:33.026 --> 00:11:35.695
The phone companies have it
at a bare minimum.
00:11:35.695 --> 00:11:36.996
Facebook probably has it.
00:11:36.996 --> 00:11:39.999
Google probably has it.
Apple probably has it.
00:11:39.999 --> 00:11:42.602
And many, many other companies
you've never even heard of
00:11:42.602 --> 00:11:44.737
that run ad networks.
00:11:44.737 --> 00:11:46.973
What this really means
00:11:46.973 --> 00:11:51.611
in a France or a United States
00:11:51.611 --> 00:11:53.179
is they go, "Well, look,
00:11:53.179 --> 00:11:55.415
we're aware of privacy concerns,
so what we're going to do
00:11:55.415 --> 00:11:58.918
is we're going to depersonalize
this information,
00:11:58.918 --> 00:12:01.154
we're going to 'anonymize' it,
00:12:01.154 --> 00:12:02.589
and we're not going to
look at individuals.
00:12:02.589 --> 00:12:06.459
We're going to look at the flows
of movement of these phones.
00:12:06.459 --> 00:12:08.261
Right? We're not looking
at one phone.
00:12:08.261 --> 00:12:11.297
We're looking at the aggregate
movements of phones."
00:12:11.297 --> 00:12:14.167
The problem is, if you're not
tracking one infection
00:12:14.167 --> 00:12:15.535
or 100 infections,
00:12:15.535 --> 00:12:18.838
but you're tracking
100,000 infections,
00:12:18.838 --> 00:12:20.840
contact-tracing quickly
becomes useless.
00:12:20.840 --> 00:12:25.678
And more, the precision
of location information
00:12:25.678 --> 00:12:29.816
is either so rough
00:12:29.816 --> 00:12:32.385
that it is largely useless,
which is the case
00:12:32.385 --> 00:12:34.153
if we're talking about
the cellphone networks,
00:12:34.153 --> 00:12:35.855
the cellphone towers
you're near,
00:12:35.855 --> 00:12:40.526
to very, very precise
location information,
00:12:40.526 --> 00:12:42.128
in which case this information
00:12:42.128 --> 00:12:44.797
when you're applying it
at scale,
00:12:44.797 --> 00:12:48.534
cannot be anonymized
in a meaningful way.
00:12:48.534 --> 00:12:50.103
And then there's
this big question of,
00:12:50.103 --> 00:12:52.639
well, where does all
that information go?
00:12:52.639 --> 00:12:54.007
How is it controlled?
00:12:54.007 --> 00:12:57.010
Who's it being used --
It's information about me.
00:12:57.010 --> 00:12:58.778
I should have
some influence over it.
00:12:58.778 --> 00:13:01.214
I should have control over it.
00:13:01.214 --> 00:13:02.915
But unfortunately,
in the United States,
00:13:02.915 --> 00:13:04.917
to a large degree, you don't.
00:13:04.917 --> 00:13:09.555
There is no basic privacy law
in the United States.
00:13:09.555 --> 00:13:11.157
We need to be able
to make sure
00:13:11.157 --> 00:13:14.594
that the brakes
that are being pumped
00:13:14.594 --> 00:13:18.431
are on the pandemic
00:13:18.431 --> 00:13:20.333
rather than on our society.
00:13:20.333 --> 00:13:23.436
-You know, it seems
that this is
00:13:23.436 --> 00:13:28.641
maybe the greatest question
of the modern era
00:13:28.641 --> 00:13:31.177
around civil liberties,
00:13:31.177 --> 00:13:35.148
around the right to privacy.
00:13:35.148 --> 00:13:38.918
Yet no one's asking
this question.
00:13:38.918 --> 00:13:42.822
We really don't hear
a lot about it.
00:13:42.822 --> 00:13:47.627
And so now this is
probably the largest societal
00:13:47.627 --> 00:13:52.031
zeitgeist change to,
"Yes, have the information
00:13:52.031 --> 00:13:53.900
because we have
to stop this thing."
00:13:53.900 --> 00:13:56.069
You know, we're declaring,
you know,
00:13:56.069 --> 00:13:58.738
various states of emergencies
here and there.
00:13:58.738 --> 00:14:01.074
But these have sweeping powers.
00:14:01.074 --> 00:14:05.411
So we're sitting here in America
quarantined and saying,
00:14:05.411 --> 00:14:08.715
"Okay, what does this mean
going forward?"
00:14:08.715 --> 00:14:11.017
-When I think
about the future,
00:14:11.017 --> 00:14:15.922
when any of us look
at where this is heading,
00:14:15.922 --> 00:14:18.191
we need to think about
where we've been,
00:14:18.191 --> 00:14:21.194
and sadly, these kind
of emergency powers
00:14:21.194 --> 00:14:23.396
that are born out of crises
00:14:23.396 --> 00:14:25.465
have a perfect history
of abuse.
00:14:25.465 --> 00:14:26.733
I mean, down the board,
00:14:26.733 --> 00:14:28.468
whenever you look
at these things,
00:14:28.468 --> 00:14:31.571
the funniest part about it
in a dark way
00:14:31.571 --> 00:14:33.606
is that the emergency
never ends.
00:14:33.606 --> 00:14:35.007
It becomes normalized.
00:14:35.007 --> 00:14:37.443
When you talk about
mass surveillance,
00:14:37.443 --> 00:14:40.646
the Bush-era warrantless
wiretapping program,
00:14:40.646 --> 00:14:44.517
only part of it was shut down,
and it's rolled over
00:14:44.517 --> 00:14:46.185
and it's rolled over
and it's rolled over.
00:14:46.185 --> 00:14:47.687
And we've performed things
at the edges,
00:14:47.687 --> 00:14:50.957
but the basic practices
of what was supposed to be
00:14:50.957 --> 00:14:52.291
a stopgap emergency,
00:14:52.291 --> 00:14:55.194
which was in response
to another stopgap emergency,
00:14:55.194 --> 00:14:57.396
was which was, of course,
the legacy of 9/11
00:14:57.396 --> 00:14:58.865
and the Patriot Act.
00:14:58.865 --> 00:15:03.870
And we are still today
engaged in the same wars
00:15:03.870 --> 00:15:06.139
that we declared
nearly 20 years ago
00:15:06.139 --> 00:15:09.142
that we have not managed
to escape.
00:15:09.142 --> 00:15:11.778
You know, we had,
as a result of 9/11,
00:15:11.778 --> 00:15:14.046
the rise
of the nuclear Iran
00:15:14.046 --> 00:15:16.883
because their counterbalance
in Iraq was ruined.
00:15:16.883 --> 00:15:22.522
We saw authoritarianism begin to
creep across Western societies,
00:15:22.522 --> 00:15:26.759
places we wouldn't expect,
like Hungary and Poland.
00:15:26.759 --> 00:15:30.129
As authoritarianism spreads,
00:15:30.129 --> 00:15:34.333
as emergency laws
proliferate,
00:15:34.333 --> 00:15:39.005
as we sacrifice our rights,
00:15:39.005 --> 00:15:42.508
we also sacrifice
our capability
00:15:42.508 --> 00:15:47.246
to arrest this slide into a less
liberal and less free world.
00:15:47.246 --> 00:15:50.950
Do you truly believe that when
the first wave, the second wave,
00:15:50.950 --> 00:15:53.186
the 16th wave
of the coronavirus
00:15:53.186 --> 00:15:55.621
is a long-forgotten memory,
00:15:55.621 --> 00:15:57.957
that these capabilities
will not be kept,
00:15:57.957 --> 00:16:00.359
that these data sets
will not be kept?
00:16:00.359 --> 00:16:02.929
Will those capabilities
begin to be applied
00:16:02.929 --> 00:16:04.530
to small-time criminality?
00:16:04.530 --> 00:16:07.033
Will they begin to be applied
to political analysis?
00:16:07.033 --> 00:16:09.001
Will they begin to be applied
00:16:09.001 --> 00:16:11.437
for doing things
like performing a census?
00:16:11.437 --> 00:16:14.273
Will they be used
for political polling?
00:16:14.273 --> 00:16:16.042
No matter how it is being used,
00:16:16.042 --> 00:16:22.148
what is being built is
the architecture of oppression.
00:16:22.148 --> 00:16:25.451
And you might trust
who is dealing with it,
00:16:25.451 --> 00:16:26.919
you might trust
who runs it.
00:16:26.919 --> 00:16:29.155
You might go, "You know, I don't
care about Mark Zuckerberg."
00:16:29.155 --> 00:16:31.924
But someone else will have
this data eventually.
00:16:31.924 --> 00:16:34.894
Some other country
will have this data eventually.
00:16:34.894 --> 00:16:36.996
In your country,
a different president
00:16:36.996 --> 00:16:38.831
will have control
of this data eventually,
00:16:38.831 --> 00:16:43.069
and someone will abuse it.
00:16:43.069 --> 00:16:46.138
Now, could China use it for
something interesting to them?
00:16:46.138 --> 00:16:49.108
Yes. And what happens
when they abuse it?
00:16:49.108 --> 00:16:51.444
And I believe they already have.
00:16:51.444 --> 00:16:53.479
You know, they're they're
running internment camps
00:16:53.479 --> 00:16:54.981
in China.
00:16:54.981 --> 00:16:58.217
And these practices,
when they don't get pushback,
00:16:58.217 --> 00:17:00.319
when they don't get
condemnation,
00:17:00.319 --> 00:17:01.821
when they don't face sanction,
00:17:01.821 --> 00:17:05.358
this will become normalized
and it will spread.
00:17:05.358 --> 00:17:07.460
And we'll face them in Russia.
00:17:07.460 --> 00:17:08.995
We'll face them in Iran.
00:17:08.995 --> 00:17:10.329
And then we'll face them
in Poland,
00:17:10.329 --> 00:17:11.430
we'll face them in Hungary,
00:17:11.430 --> 00:17:12.765
we'll face them
throughout Europe.
00:17:12.765 --> 00:17:14.400
We will face them
in the United States
00:17:14.400 --> 00:17:16.936
because we will face them
everywhere.
00:17:16.936 --> 00:17:19.472
♪♪
00:17:19.472 --> 00:17:21.173
-This is a pivotal moment.
00:17:21.173 --> 00:17:22.842
-It is.
-And why is nobody
00:17:22.842 --> 00:17:26.078
talking about this?
00:17:26.078 --> 00:17:27.580
-Because we're scared.
00:17:31.651 --> 00:17:38.024
♪♪
00:17:38.024 --> 00:17:41.560
-We've talked about, this is,
let's say, the first wave.
00:17:41.560 --> 00:17:46.499
And until there's
a functioning vaccine,
00:17:46.499 --> 00:17:48.167
there's going to be more waves.
00:17:48.167 --> 00:17:50.403
There's going to be
more pandemics.
00:17:50.403 --> 00:17:54.073
I mean, this is just the way
it's going to go.
00:17:54.073 --> 00:17:57.843
So if there's going to be more
waves of COVID-19, and in fact,
00:17:57.843 --> 00:18:01.080
more waves of other pandemics
going forward,
00:18:01.080 --> 00:18:05.651
then theoretically there
will be more information,
00:18:05.651 --> 00:18:09.922
more information collected,
more information shared.
00:18:09.922 --> 00:18:12.491
This is the "new normal."
00:18:12.491 --> 00:18:15.261
This is just -- it's not
going to get better.
00:18:15.261 --> 00:18:19.765
This is just it.
This is a pivotal moment.
00:18:19.765 --> 00:18:21.000
-It is.
-And why is nobody
00:18:21.000 --> 00:18:22.168
talking about this?
00:18:24.570 --> 00:18:26.639
-Because we're scared.
00:18:26.639 --> 00:18:29.508
If we work together,
if we think that how we can
00:18:29.508 --> 00:18:31.911
protect ourselves,
our families, our communities,
00:18:31.911 --> 00:18:35.081
our hospitals, if we think about
how we can work
00:18:35.081 --> 00:18:37.583
together internationally
to overcome this,
00:18:37.583 --> 00:18:41.087
as our weeds peak in different
places at different times,
00:18:41.087 --> 00:18:45.424
we cooperate,
we can start to get this space
00:18:45.424 --> 00:18:48.995
to think not about
addressing the symptom
00:18:48.995 --> 00:18:51.397
of our overcrowded
and unequal world,
00:18:51.397 --> 00:18:56.302
which is this virus that has
spread across borders instantly.
00:18:56.302 --> 00:18:57.870
When you look at
what's happened,
00:18:57.870 --> 00:18:59.805
when we have
this health crisis,
00:18:59.805 --> 00:19:02.975
and it very quickly morphed
into an economic crisis
00:19:02.975 --> 00:19:07.480
and then very quickly
became a financial crisis,
00:19:07.480 --> 00:19:09.949
you see all the governments
of the world leap into action.
00:19:09.949 --> 00:19:11.984
And it's interesting that you
see the majority of this money
00:19:11.984 --> 00:19:15.421
go not to the public,
not to hospitals,
00:19:15.421 --> 00:19:16.922
but to businesses,
00:19:16.922 --> 00:19:20.993
loans to the groups
and corporations
00:19:20.993 --> 00:19:23.062
that actually created
the systemic problems
00:19:23.062 --> 00:19:29.001
that were exacerbated
by this sudden sharp decline.
00:19:29.001 --> 00:19:33.072
But we need to remember
that this virus will pass,
00:19:33.072 --> 00:19:37.943
but the decisions that we make
today in this atmosphere
00:19:37.943 --> 00:19:40.312
will last.
00:19:40.312 --> 00:19:41.747
We will have to live with them
00:19:41.747 --> 00:19:43.349
and our children will have
to live with them.
00:19:43.349 --> 00:19:45.451
All of our posterity will.
00:19:45.451 --> 00:19:49.388
It's not just about America.
It's not just about your city.
00:19:49.388 --> 00:19:51.924
It's about everywhere.
00:19:51.924 --> 00:19:55.361
Because these systems,
if we do not change them,
00:19:55.361 --> 00:19:59.265
they're going to make decisions
for us on an automated basis
00:19:59.265 --> 00:20:01.333
to determine who gets a job,
00:20:01.333 --> 00:20:03.936
who gets a home,
and who does not.
00:20:07.673 --> 00:20:14.213
♪♪
00:20:14.213 --> 00:20:16.182
-So we seem to be heading
00:20:16.182 --> 00:20:18.617
into this uncharted territory.
00:20:18.617 --> 00:20:21.587
And I wanted to ask you,
you know, step back,
00:20:21.587 --> 00:20:23.189
take some time.
00:20:23.189 --> 00:20:24.557
What should we be
thinking about?
00:20:24.557 --> 00:20:27.526
What should we be
concentrating on?
00:20:27.526 --> 00:20:31.764
-One of the things
that strikes me is
00:20:31.764 --> 00:20:33.666
this sensation that this is,
00:20:33.666 --> 00:20:35.301
you know,
a bolt out of the blue,
00:20:35.301 --> 00:20:37.703
it couldn't have been prevented,
it couldn't have been resisted,
00:20:37.703 --> 00:20:41.807
it couldn't have been imagined
that this would come to pass,
00:20:41.807 --> 00:20:43.943
this global pandemic.
00:20:43.943 --> 00:20:46.278
When you think about
the average American,
00:20:46.278 --> 00:20:48.347
you know,
they go to work every day.
00:20:48.347 --> 00:20:51.817
They spend ten hours
at the office, in the car,
00:20:51.817 --> 00:20:55.087
away from their family,
away from their home.
00:20:55.087 --> 00:20:58.991
And by the end of the day,
they've got no space to think.
00:20:58.991 --> 00:21:02.161
And now all of us collectively
at the same time
00:21:02.161 --> 00:21:06.899
has been forced into a global
sabbatical all around the world,
00:21:06.899 --> 00:21:11.570
which is an extraordinarily
rare event in history.
00:21:11.570 --> 00:21:14.807
We are at one of
the only moments
00:21:14.807 --> 00:21:20.112
that will be in our lifetimes
where the system is so stressed
00:21:20.112 --> 00:21:22.848
and so overextended
and the leadership
00:21:22.848 --> 00:21:26.619
so clearly out of its league
that we have the ability
00:21:26.619 --> 00:21:29.288
to make not reformative changes,
00:21:29.288 --> 00:21:30.890
but revolutionary changes,
00:21:30.890 --> 00:21:33.792
that we can actually change
the functioning of society,
00:21:33.792 --> 00:21:36.495
that we can actually change
the structure of the system
00:21:36.495 --> 00:21:38.464
that controls
and influences our lives --
00:21:38.464 --> 00:21:39.899
the way that we are
being monitored,
00:21:39.899 --> 00:21:41.433
the way that we're being
tracked.
00:21:41.433 --> 00:21:45.337
Because these systems,
if we do not change them,
00:21:45.337 --> 00:21:47.640
will not simply be used
to monitor our health.
00:21:47.640 --> 00:21:51.677
They're going to make decisions
for us on an automated basis
00:21:51.677 --> 00:21:55.080
to determine who gets a job,
who goes to school,
00:21:55.080 --> 00:21:57.149
who gets a loan,
who gets a home,
00:21:57.149 --> 00:21:59.018
and who does not.
00:21:59.018 --> 00:22:01.353
And we today are being asked
00:22:01.353 --> 00:22:04.156
in a moment
of extraordinary fear,
00:22:04.156 --> 00:22:07.326
"What do we want
these systems to look like?"
00:22:07.326 --> 00:22:09.662
And if we don't make
that decision ourselves,
00:22:09.662 --> 00:22:12.631
it will be made for us.
00:22:12.631 --> 00:22:15.434
-Edward Snowden,
thank you for your time today.
00:22:15.434 --> 00:22:18.070
-Thanks so much, Shane.
00:22:18.070 --> 00:22:22.541
♪♪
00:22:22.541 --> 00:22:27.046
♪♪
00:22:27.046 --> 00:22:32.117
♪♪
00:22:32.117 --> 00:22:38.824
♪♪
