Subj : Re: Angels and demons
To : jimmylogan
From : Boraxman
Date : Wed May 28 2025 08:25 am
-=> jimmylogan wrote to Boraxman <=-
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-=> Boraxman wrote to jimmylogan <=-
ji> Foreknowledge is NOT the say as predestination. If God
ji> DECIDED for us, we would have no choice. But He doesn't
ji> decide for us, but He does KNOW what we are going to
ji> choose.
Bo> This is a problem that is discussed in physics as well, whether the
Bo> universe is deterministic and whether a deternistic universe allows
Bo> free will.
ji> By deterministic, do you mean that things are set in motion
ji> and will unfold based purely on cause and effect -
ji> no intelligent intervention?
Correct. I should state that I think the comment argument that we don't have
free will doesn't make much sens. We do have some free will, because decisions
come from within us. Even of those decisions are based purely on the laws of
nature, and could only have gone one way, I still think it counts as free will.
Bo> Foreknowledge does mean that your choice is set, before it is made,
Bo> before it is considered. If I know that you are going to eat Corn
Bo> Flakes for breakfast on the 30th of January, 2027, then it removes the
Bo> possibility of you making any decision which does not result in you
Bo> eating those Corn Flakes. Foreknowledge of every event, removes every
Bo> possibility. There is only one possibility, the future that is known.
ji> You said: "Foreknowledge removes all other possibilities." But I
ji> see it the other way around. You only know I'll eat Corn Flakes
ji> because I chose to. If I suddenly decide on Raisin Bran instead,
ji> then your foreknowledge would reflect that. Your knowing is a
ji> result of my choice - not the cause of it.
If I know you will have cornflakes, assuming I do have foreknowledge, then you
WONT change your mind. Gods foreknowledge cannot be flawed. Your sudden
decisions can't happen. Either my foreknowledge is imperfect, and subject to
change, or you can't decide anything other than what matches my foreknowledge.
I don't think this means there is no free will, but is does rule out you
choosing anything other than eating cornflakes, as well as *every other choice
which will preclude you from eating them*.
Bo> It still is reasonable to act as if we have choices, after all, our
Bo> choices are influenced by what happens to us, but this creates a bit
Bo> of a conundrum. If we indeed only have one path, who set that path?
ji> That's the key for me. God's foreknowledge doesn't erase our
ji> free will - it just means He already sees the outcome. There's
ji> still a genuine decision being made, from our point of view
ji> inside time.
ji> So when you ask: "If there's only one path, who set it?" I'd say:
ji> no one sets it in the sense of forcing it. It's just that God,
ji> being outside of time, already sees the whole path we'll choose.
ji> You and I don't have this perspective. We live moment by moment.
ji> We don't even know what we'll decide tomorrow (or if we'll even
ji> be here). But just because God knows our future decisions
ji> doesn't mean He causes them.
I sort of agree. The decision is still from within us, it is, technically us.
This is why I think the claim we have no free will doesn't quite hold. BUT I
also view us having determistic decisions (ie, our decisions are already
determined by mechanics from the very start) compatible with the idea that we
do
make decisions.
So I agree that you make decisions, I just disagree that your decision path
could be changed from that which allows God to have foreknowledge. Computers
make decisions, but those decisions are already baked into the software. The
computer is just acting based on its input.
Bo> For us mere mortals, we can attribute responsibility to each other,
Bo> because there is not other candidate. But if a Deity was the first
Bo> Prime Mover, then responsibility lies there. Then we have
Bo> predestination.
ji> So on that final point, I will respectfully disagree. :-)
I understand your explanation, but I consider it immoral. Much in the same way
I understant the argument for eternal damnation in hell, but consider it
immoral
and beastly. If God is the only one who can meaningfully implement any change,
but still burns us for eternity, then he is a monster. But as I think its just
a creation of tribal desert Jews, to me, the only thing this reveals is the
poor
morality of some Christians.
... BoraxMan
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