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  Rob Pike Interview

Rob Pike interview: “Go has indeed become the language of cloud
infrastructure“

Introduction

  We spoke to Rob Pike, the co-author of the Go programming language,
  about a career spanning four decades, the evolution of Go over the last
  ten years, and into the future.

The Interview

  Evrone: Unlike many developers today, you started your career decades
  ago at Bell Labs. What’s been the biggest change in the way we develop
  software that you can think of, given your rare perspective?

  Rob: The scale is much bigger today. Not just of the computers and the
  network, but the programs themselves. All of Unix version 6 (circa
  1975) fits comfortably on a single RK05 disk pack, which has just over
  2MB of storage, with lots of room left over for user software. And that
  was a fine computing environment, or at least seemed like one at the
  time. Although I can, of course, explain much of the growth, it is
  astonishing and perhaps not all of it is justified.


  Evrone: Given the "resistance to change" and "promise of compatibility"
  ideas, how do you see the next 10 years for the Go programming language
  and its ecosystem? What is the best future you envision for your
  technology?

  Rob: Although it's far from certain, after over a decade of work it
  looks like a design for parametric polymorphism, what is colloquially
  but misleadingly called generics, is coming in the next year or two. It
  was a very hard problem to find a design that works within the existing
  language and feels as if it belongs, but Ian Taylor invested a
  phenomenal amount of energy into the problem and it looks like the
  answer is now in reach.

  How that affects the libraries, the ecosystem, and the community will
  be fascinating to watch.


  Evrone: With "gradual typing" being introduced into "dynamically typed"
  languages and "type inference" into "statically typed", the line
  between two is now blurred. What is your opinion on a type system for a
  modern programming language?

  Rob: I am a big fan of static typing because of the stability and
  safety it brings.

  I am a big fan of dynamic typing because of the fun and lightweight
  feel it brings. (As a side note, the big push for integrated unit
  testing can be credited to languages like Python, which drove testing
  to demonstrate correctness that the typing system failed to provide.)

  I am not a fan of type-driven programming, type hierarchies and classes
  and inheritance. Although many hugely successful projects have been
  built that way, I feel the approach pushes important decisions too
  early into the design phase, before experience can influence it. In
  other words, I prefer composition to inheritance.

  However, I say to those who are comfortable using inheritance to
  structure their programs: pay no attention and please continue to use
  what works for you.


  Evrone: Sometimes people use technologies in strange ways. For example,
  to generate efficient Go code from the high-level Python or Ruby code
  (yes, we saw that happening!) Over the years, what is the strangest,
  most creative or amusing Go usage have you seen? What surprised you the
  most?

  Rob: The biggest surprise was when we learned that Go was being used to
  write malware. You can't control who will use your work or what they
  will do with it.


  Evrone: You created a number of text editors. What do you think about
  the Visual Studio code? With technologies like LSP, the line between
  "text editor" and IDE is blurred now. Do you think software developers
  need full-featured IDEs like GoLand or using VSCode is fine?

  Rob: I am from a different time, before IDEs, but there was talk early
  in the project about whether Go needed an IDE to succeed. No one on the
  team had the right skill set, though, so we did not try to create one.
  However, we did create core libraries for parsing and printing Go code,
  which soon enabled high-quality plugins for all manner of editor and
  IDE, and that was a serendipitous success.

  More recently, we've been working hard on an LSP server for Go called
  gopls, which can be used by any editor or IDE that supports that
  protocol to improve the experience working with the language.

  Perhaps because of our comfort working with simpler styles of editor,
  we made sure that one could work comfortably in Go without heavy
  lifting from the programming environment. An IDE can certainly help,
  though: most of those I see working in Go today use one, or at least an
  editor with custom Go support, and get much value from it.

  The question of what style of editor to use is a matter of taste,
  colored by the culture of the language you work in.


  Evrone: Software developers tend to label things, such as Dart being a
  "frontend language", and C being a "system low-level language", and so
  on. How would you term the Go programming language now, given its
  feature set and usage?

  Rob: Go is a general-purpose programming language. Write whatever you
  want in it and don't worry about pinning the language, or any other
  technology for that matter, to a single problem domain.


  Evrone: What other modern programming languages do you personally like?

  Rob: The Go experience has taught me that people love to opine about
  languages, perhaps more than almost any other element of our field. And
  I have certainly done so myself. But I am tired of the negativity that
  often results, so now I try to avoid judging things for others.

  There has been a real renaissance in language design over the last 10
  years or so, after a period where very few new languages were arriving
  and succeeding. It's great to see this and the innovation it brings.


  Evrone: How does being a Google employee help you develop and guide the
  Go language? How important is it to be able to ask "tell us how you use
  our language" on Twitter and get responses from the biggest companies
  all over the world? Is it just a nice addition or an essential part of
  language development? How does Google help you?

  Rob: Google has been very generous in its support for the Go project,
  for which I am very grateful. And of course the language was created
  because we thought Google needed it; what became called "cloud
  computing" needed a language with good support for concurrency and easy
  deployment, among other things. But Google has not directed the project
  in any significant way. It supports us and lets us do what we think is
  best.

  Regarding other companies and other users, input from the community is
  a vital part of understanding how the project, by which I mean the
  language, compiler, tools, runtime, library, environment — all of it —
  advances.


  Evrone: After 10 years of Go development and observing how it is used,
  what can you name the biggest design success and, opposite, biggest
  design failure for the language? It's strongest and weakest points,
  respectively?

  Rob: I would like to call out two things, one technical and one
  political.

  The technical one is first-class support for concurrent computation. Go
  is only a decade or so old, but when it was being developed,
  "threading" and concurrency were not widely appreciated in the
  programming community. In fact a major reason for creating Go was the
  difficulty of doing concurrent computation in C++ at the time. It
  became clear shortly after launch that the concurrency support was a
  major attraction, one that compensated for what some felt were
  weaknesses in other parts of the language. Concurrency struck a nerve.
  And once people played with the concurrency, they started exploring the
  other things about the language and learned that there was more there
  than they originally thought. Support for concurrency was the gateway.

  As John Graham-Cumming of Cloudflare says, "I came for the easy
  concurrency, I stayed for the easy composition".

  Go changed the conversation around how to program multicore computers.

  The political success was the firm promise made about compatibility for
  Go version 1. Once we, and the community, had used Go for a few years,
  we had a long list of things we wanted to fix, but change is
  disruptive. So we did a careful program of updates, with the "go fix"
  command to pull the community along, and once that was done, not only
  did we stop, we promised to stay stopped. That stability — Go programs
  written in 2012 will still compile and run perfectly today — was a huge
  enabler for growth. Companies could use the language with confidence
  that we would not break their software. The adoption rate increased
  dramatically after version 1 and its compatibility promise appeared.
  And although we have since learned of many other things we would like
  to change, we can't break existing programs, and we are fine with that.


  Evrone: What does your work-life balance look like? There are lots of
  talks about "burn-outs" right now, and the epidemic situation does not
  help at all. Any hints from your 40-year journey for new generations of
  developers?

  Rob: The best way to avoid burnout is to do something you truly enjoy
  in an environment that supports you. I've been very lucky in that
  regard through my whole career, but I realize not everyone is as
  fortunate. If you're feeling stressed by work, you should feel free to
  take a break or change direction, especially in our current situation.


  Evrone: In hindsight, the popularity of many technologies is credited
  to so-called "killer apps" that made them popular. Can you name such a
  "killer app(s)" for the Go programming language and what do you think
  about such a "killer app" idea as a whole?

  Rob: A few years ago, Danny Berkholz called Go "the emerging language
  of cloud infrastructure," and that is no accident. Go was designed by
  people working at Google to make it easier to write Google-relevant
  software, in particular network-resident servers. That's what we call
  "cloud" today. (Some of the motivation for the design is in my Splash
  keynote from 2012, Go at Google: Language Design in the Service of
  Software Engineering.)

  So although it was gratifying and important to see Docker, Kubernetes,
  and many other components of [45]cloud computing written in Go, it's
  perhaps not too surprising. Go has indeed become the language of cloud
  infrastructure.


  Evrone: What competition do you see for the Go programming language
  right now and in what area? What is your opinion about Rust with its
  "no-garbage-collection" ideas and compile-time guarantees?

  Rob: Rust is an intriguing language and I watch its development with
  interest. Beyond that, I offer no opinion, as I said above.


  Evrone: Go has just reached 70k stars on GitHub! How do you see
  different social activities like GitHub, Reddit, Twitter, offline and
  online conferences, webinars etc influence the language? Are they
  important for the language's success or they just reflect it?

  Rob: The people we have met through conferences and social media have
  been a critical part of the development of Go and all its elements.
  Many, many contributors have affected the development in positive ways,
  including the original port to Windows and a number of non-x86
  architectures, development of tools and libraries, thoughtful
  discussions of technical proposals, and much more.

  And it goes the other way, as the Go team reaches out to the community
  to start discussions, pose questions, and ask for help and guidance.

  One thing that I think is important is to engage with the community as
  one voice, to speak as a team rather than as individuals. A consistent
  message is more easily understood.


  Evrone: How being the author of one of the popular programming
  languages has changed your life?

  Rob: A correction: I am a co-author, not the author. Ken Thompson and
  Robert Griesemer started the project with me, and many others
  contributed massively. So please don't single me out as "the author".

  To answer your question, Go has certainly raised my public profile and
  introduced me to a new and vibrant community but beyond that it hasn't
  had much effect. I've had a long career with other successes (and
  innumerable failures).


  Evrone: Imagine that you have an opportunity to travel back in time and
  give only one piece of advice to your younger self, at around the time
  you’ve started to design the Go language spec. What advice would you
  give to yourself and your colleagues?

  Rob: That's easy: Ignore the haters. Just listen to the voices that
  understand and share your goals; they're the ones to care about. Not
  everyone agrees with what you're doing, and that's OK. But those who
  engage in advancing what you're trying to do can be a fantastic source
  of ideas, energy, and inspiration.

  We will always be thankful to our passionate community.

  At Evrone we pride ourselves on using the best tool for the job,
  whether that’s [46]Ruby on Rails, [47]Python, [48]Elixir, or, of
  course, [49]Go. We strive to stay at the forefront of a range of
  technologies to be able to provide the best and most appropriate
  solutions to meet our clients’ needs, and we’re very happy to do all we
  can to help bring developer communities together.
  Although it was gratifying and important to see Docker, Kubernetes, and
  many other components of cloud computing written in Go, it’s perhaps
  not too surprising. Go has indeed become the language of cloud
  infrastructure.
  Rob Pike
  Co-author of the Go programming language
  Used technologies:
  [50]Ruby
  [51]Rust
  [52]Go
  [53]Python
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