#[1]Meta Stack Exchange [2]Feed for question 'TLS 1.0 and TLS 1.1

#[1]Meta Stack Exchange [2]Feed for question 'TLS 1.0 and TLS 1.1
removal for Stack Exchange services'

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[31]TLS 1.0 and TLS 1.1 removal for Stack Exchange services

[32]Ask Question
Asked yesterday
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9

As part of our regular efforts to increase security and keep up with
the times, we will be disabling [34]TLS 1.0 and 1.1 for Stack Exchange
services on February 12th, 2020. TLS 1.2 and above will continue to
work. Note: this will not immediately affect all services. Some of our
services are handled via Fastly, and some at our load balancers
directly - this change will not affect both segments at once. Things
like Q&A, Talent, etc. flow through Fastly and will be the first
affected. Things that are direct, like Chat and our API, will not be
affected immediately.

Why?

Most browsers and operating systems moved to TLS 1.2 quite a while ago
now (for example, we don't support Windows XP...and neither does
Microsoft). We held out for as many clients as possible to move over,
but now it's time to make the change. If you're curious what the
vulnerabilities are in TLS 1.0 and 1.1, [35]there's a good writeup
here. We've been monitoring traffic levels over the past few months and
we are now at HTTPS stats of:
* TLS 1.0: 0.6%
* TLS 1.1: 0.0%
* TLS 1.2: 99.4%

Additionally, it looks like the vast majority of the TLS 1.0 traffic is
bots (and/or sends no user agent at all) - our estimate is that 'not a
robot' requests account for less than a third of that 0.6%.

As an example of the industry moving on here, [36]our current SSL Labs
rating is a B. This is purely because of remaining TLS < 1.2 support
that we plan to remove here.

If anyone has questions, please feel free to comment or answer below
and we'll try and keep up.
[37]discussion [38]featured [39]ssl [40]announcements
[41]share|[42]improve this question
[43]edited yesterday
Nick Craver
asked yesterday
[44]Nick Craver♦Nick Craver
118k2323 gold badges401401 silver badges541541 bronze badges
* 48
Thanks for informing the community in advance for a change ;-)
– [45]cs95 is disappointed with SE yesterday
* 2
Will (or do) you have a failover page that will show an "upgrade
your browser" message to any browsers stuck on 1.0 or 1.1?
– [46]Robotnik yesterday
* 25
@Robotnik nope, not in this case. Not because we're lazy, but
because it just wouldn't help. The failure scenario of an ancient
client is they can't connect, so they'd never get be able to see
such a page. This happens earlier in the negotiation, before any
web traffic is exchanged. – [47]Nick Craver♦ yesterday
* @NickCraver, but currently you support both. Why not replace
handling of old tls by sending to a separate fallback?
– [48]Qwertiy 22 hours ago
* 15
@Qwerity Let me flip that around: why do that work and maintain it?
And for how long? Note: we have to explain to people why it’s still
enabled, etc. it’s not a zero cost to leave it on. Given it’s not
affecting actual users as far as we can tell, what’s the benefit?
Any bots or users relying on this ancient path won’t get what
they’re after, so why play around and spend time on a half measure?
We simply have limited time and resources (like most people), so
maintaining old, almost completely unused, and insecure
infrastructure is not a compelling thing to use those resources on.
– [49]Nick Craver♦ 22 hours ago
* 4
Nearly everybody who's paying attention and running a site has
obsoleted or is in the process of removing TLS 1.0 and 1.1
compatibility. If somebody has an old browser that can't handle
that, they're going to be blocked at most sites they visit. Stack
Exchange will be the least of their worries. – [50]Ask About Monica
21 hours ago
* 3
For that poor less than a third of 0.6% of clients I wonder what
site they'll turn to to ask for help on why they can no longer
connect to Stack Exchange. – [51]BACON 18 hours ago
* @Robotnik Most traffic using weak ciphers are bots attempting to
exploit vulnerabilities. If real users are on devices incapable of
using current generation SSL ciphers, they are most likely unable
to upgrade them anway. Maintaining a failover page simply wouldn't
achieve any useful outcomes. – [52]user1751825 14 hours ago

[53]add a comment |

5 Answers 5

[54]active [55]oldest [56]votes
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74
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Removing support for outdated security technologies is surely a good
move. But

I see your statistics includes only TLS 1.2, so do you have any plan
for TLS 1.3? It's the new standard in 2018 and is supported by all
major browsers (excl. IE) and a lot of cloud services (Cloudflare, AWS
ELB etc.). I really think that should be added as well.
[57]share|[58]improve this answer
answered yesterday
[59]iBug is disappointed in SEiBug is disappointed in SE
23.2k44 gold badges4343 silver badges9292 bronze badges
* 1
Without knowing the "guts" inside SE, it could be that there are
backend components (and subcomponents between backends and UIs or
the edge) that do not support TLS 1.3 equally. For example, TLS 1.3
is supported in Java 11, but it is not included in earlier
versions, and there's a ton of Java middleware that for one reason
or another are still running in earlier versions (we run Java 7 at
work.) I suspect it will take a few years before TLS 1.3 become the
90.xxx% supported norm. – [60]luis.espinal yesterday
* 2
IIRC they're a .NET shop, so if they're restricted to a .NET
version < 4.6 then TLS 1.3 is not available. – [61]Matt Ellen
yesterday
* 1
I'm aware about dependency restrictions in a large corporation (we
use unencrypted transmission in our laboratory intranet, which is
pretty small per se), but what about the public-facing part?
– [62]iBug is disappointed in SE yesterday
* 58
Good question! Yes, we are looking at TLS 1.3...but don't want to
combine such changes. That will be a later follow-up once we get
1.0 and 1.1 off the radar here :) Since it's a 2-leg negotiation
from you to Fastly to us, we have the ability to enable TLS 1.3 to
users before the backend if needed...but all components of the
stack are 1.3 compatible for the curious :) – [63]Nick Craver♦
yesterday

[64]add a comment |
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EDIT: now fixed

When you write "we will be deprecating TLS 1.0 and 1.1", do you mean
that they will no longer work after next week?

It seems so from your next sentence, but this is confusing to me,
because in my experience that is not what "deprecating" means in the
programming world:

Software deprecation

While a deprecated software feature remains in the software, its use
may raise warning messages recommending alternative practices;
deprecated status may also indicate the feature will be removed in
the future. Features are deprecated rather than immediately removed,
to provide backward compatibility, and to give programmers time to
bring affected code into compliance with the new standard.

from [65]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deprecation, and, from
[66]https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/deprecate (emphasis mine):

2. (transitive, chiefly computing) To declare something obsolescent;
to recommend against a function, technique, command, etc. that
still works but has been replaced.

[67]share|[68]improve this answer
[69]edited yesterday
answered yesterday
[70]Federico PoloniFederico Poloni
2,81111 gold badge1111 silver badges2020 bronze badges
* 5
In this context it means they're being removed, yep - deprecated in
favor of TLS 1.2 which all supported clients support. It turns out
we just found a bug in non-SNI certificate delivery late last night
as well, which means non-SNI clients (huge overlap with TLS < 1.2
support) weren't getting a valid cert, since December 24th. While
we're already working with Fastly to get that cert API fixed, it
also gives us even more confidence: this change will have very
minimal impact. – [71]Nick Craver♦ yesterday
* 35
@NickCraver Then I strongly suggest that you change the wording.
That is not what "deprecating" means. I suggest to use the words
"we will be removing support for TLS 1.0 and 1.1" instead.
– [72]Federico Poloni yesterday
* 16
Fair enough! Done :) – [73]Nick Craver♦ yesterday
* 2
Q&A-style discussions are weird because I'm not sure to +1 this or
not. I mean, it was a good observation such that, typically, it'd
be an easy +1. Except now that it's been fixed, this doesn't really
provide value to readers. But the current system gives rep to
answerers who make positive contributions, and it doesn't seem like
this answerer deserves less rep just because their contribution was
immediately actionable. But then this could've been a comment
instead, which wouldn't have given rep anyway. But then is that
consistent in the first place? – [74]Nat yesterday
* 5
@Nat I think you're overthinking this ;) – [75]maxathousand
yesterday
* 11
@Nat What is weird, in my view, is using a Q&A-style system for an
announcement, and soliciting questions about the announcements to
be posted as answers (presumably, to be answered by the SE staff in
comments). It all feels like using the system backwards. (See also:
dogfooding, inner platform effect.) – [76]Federico Poloni yesterday
* 2
@Federico Poloni - I agree with you. It's a misuse of the Q&A
format and a bad example to the other sites. IMHO it'd be better if
meta had a slightly different format than all other sites.
– [77]LawrenceC 18 hours ago

[78]add a comment |
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Running the [79]Immuniweb.com Security Test it complains (abbreviated
version):

[80]Summary of stackexchange.com SSL Security Test

The problem is TLSv1.1 and TLSv1.0 configured with TLS_RSA_WITH_ 3DES
_EDE_CBC_SHA enabled, that is non-compliant with PCI DSS requirements.
In particular, the test complains of supporting TLSv1.0 and lack of
support for TLSv1.3. in addition it says: "The HTTP version of the
website does not redirect to the HTTPS version. We advise to enable
redirection.".

You probably know this but the latest guidelines are: SP 800-52 Rev. 2
"[81]Guidelines for the Selection, Configuration, and Use of Transport
Layer Security (TLS) Implementations".

There is also hardware available, such as [82]Symantec's SSL Visibility
Appliance, which can [83]permit security tools to operate despite
end-to-end encryption; but it's expensive. Despite the expense
[84]traffic inspection is necessary unless you simply want to hope that
nothing can go wrong. There are also [85]Data Loss Prevention
Appliances which can detect theft of personal information, password
files, and other sensitive data; and block it before it goes over the
wire.

Your move to TLS 1.2 and up is a welcome one, we wouldn't want you to
go down for a few days or suffer the annoyance (warning?) of last
year's hack again. Thanks for keeping on the leading edge.
[86]share|[87]improve this answer
answered 6 hours ago
[88]RobRob
9,31533 gold badges2424 silver badges6363 bronze badges

[89]add a comment |
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How many users are impacted, and what measures have you got in place to
measure that impact?

You claim that

our estimate is that 'not a robot' requests account for less than a
third of that 0.6%

but that still seems like a decent number of people. Taking the 10m/day
traffic figure reported for SO on [90]the sites list, that 0.2% is
still something like 20,000 visits a day, which is not insignificant
(i.e. more than half a million visits a month), particularly if it
represents people from the marginalized backgrounds that SO claims to
champion and be welcoming to.

Now, your [91]comment that

quite a few technologies prefer TLS 1.0 and upgrade

is also fair enough. There's a large niche of user agents that won't be
impacted by the change: they're getting TLS 1.0 because they asked for
it, but will happily take higher versions if you don't give them their
first choice. And we can't know how many users this represents until
you disable TLS 1.0.

So... what are your plans for measuring how many people are in this
category, and how many people lose the access they currently have
because of it? Are you going to report that publicly?
[92]share|[93]improve this answer
answered 3 hours ago
[94]E.P.E.P.
12.5k33 gold badges3434 silver badges6060 bronze badges

[95]add a comment |
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-7
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This is a pretty bad idea, following a trend that's based on common
misunderstandings of how protocols work, and undermining the value of
robustness and interoperability (also known as Postel's law).
* Browser vendors have announced that they'll be deprecating support
for TLSv1.0 and TLSv1.1 in 2020. It is often cited that TLSv1.0 is
removed in order to avoid downgrade attacks. But if supported
browsers don't support anything below TLSv1.2, then there's nothing
for them to downgrade to, so, there doesn't seem to be a good
reason to remove support on the websites as well.
* This change means that it will no longer be possible to view your
properties from older iPad, iPhone, Android and webOS devices, for
little good reason. Keep in mind, these are devices that have
gigabytes of storage and hundreds of megabytes of memory each,
these are not some outdated devices that don't have the processing
power to do common tasks, these are very powerful devices that
simply have been abandoned by their vendors. This will result in an
effective link rot on a rather large scale (search results from
Google will no longer work), and will widen the digital gap between
people who don't have the resources to buy the latest tablets,
phones and other gadgets. You're effectively doing the brokering
for planned obsolescence on behalf of Apple and other vendors,
contributing to the global warming by deprecating very powerful
devices, each with gigabytes of storage and megabytes of RAM, which
are still perfectly capable of performing complex computing tasks.
* SSL Labs rating is a B. Only a third of 0.6% of visitors require
TLSv1.0. You're basically telling us that you'd rather have a
better rating on a meaningless scale by completely denying access
to your website only for a few million actual, real users. Is this
for real? Is this what our industry has become?

Please consider doing the following instead:
* Bring back full HTTP access. With an HSTS policy in place, none of
the supported browsers will ever notice that HTTP support is even
available. With HSTS (which is already in place on Stack Overflow),
all http:// links are treated as https://, so, there's no effective
difference for any supported browser, but the older devices that
may not have recent https support could still view the site. (For
new visitors, all you have to do is have an invisible pixel to your
HTTPS site from the HTTP one, which will automatically install HSTS
policy, and no further requests will be made over HTTP; this is
trivial to accomplish, and should seamlessly support both legacy
and modern browsers.)
* Do not disable TLSv1.0 (and noone cares for TLSv1.1 either way, as
there's hardly anything that supports TLSv1.1 without also
supporting TLSv1.2). Even if HTTP access is available, browsers
that don't support TLSv1.2 would not be able to follow the existing
https:// links due to lack of TLSv1.2 support, resulting in link
rot. (If there's a worry about certificate compromise with serving
TLSv1.0, it's rather trivial to divert TLSv1.0 and TLSv1.2 traffic
to distinct servers that each have distinct certificates, serving
distinct content, without TLSv1.2-only clients being affected in
any negative way; if TLSv1.0 is somehow deemed to be so insecure as
to being worse than straight HTTP, then it's also an option to
redirect back from HTTPS to HTTP for such old TLSv1.0-only clients
in order to not contribute to link rot.)

[96]share|[97]improve this answer
answered 16 hours ago
[98]cnstcnst
1,06566 silver badges1414 bronze badges
* 12
That traffic is almost all bots, I called this out in the post.
We’ve delayed until user impact is minimal. The number is not
millions, we’d be shocked if it was even in the thousands. You’re
also forgetting that quite a few technologies prefer TLS 1.0 and
upgrade, not downgrade of its missing. This means they default to
an insecure protocol. Some of that 0.6% will be just fine because
it’s in this bucket…even though it’s almost all bots. – [99]Nick
Craver♦ 16 hours ago
* @NickCraver "You’re also forgetting that quite a few technologies
prefer TLS 1.0 and upgrade, not downgrade of its missing." — what
do you mean? FYI: Google still fully supports Google Search over
HTTP, last I checked a couple of weeks ago. I also highly doubt
that there's only a thousand of deprecated iPad devices still in
operation, and/or some of them may already be denied access due to
cipher differences. – [100]cnst 16 hours ago
* 10
Okay let's take that example. TLS 1.2 is supported all the way back
to iOS 5. It's install-able all the way back to the iPhone 3GS and
the original iPad. So quite literally, there's not an iPad that
would not support connecting to us over TLS 1.2. I'm happy to have
good faith arguments on this about what we should support, but this
seems like we're just really reaching to "why don't you support
everything forever"? Remember, all of these devices in the example
are from browsers we a) do not support (and haven't for some time),
and b) render our pages very badly - they're a decade behind.
– [101]Nick Craver♦ 16 hours ago
* 4
On the TLS 1.0 front, some things like older OSes (PowerShell, etc.
included) will try TLS 1.0 only based on config, or in order. They
are capable of TLS 1.2 though. In short: we're not going to
continue supporting these insecure protocols the entire industry
recommends against at this point. It's just a bad practice, and has
near-zero impact to actual users (which I do care greatly about).
– [102]Nick Craver♦ 16 hours ago
* 4
@NickCraver Agreed. Continuing to allow insecure protocols simply
to support some hyperthetical user base on very old devices, I
would say would be irresponsible. – [103]user1751825 14 hours ago
* 3
@cnst, how "older" are you talking about? I've got an Android 4.4
device I keep around for compatibility testing, and the default
browser supports TLS 1.2. – [104]Mark 13 hours ago
* You can even argue that support for SSLv3 should be brought back as
well for "compatibility with Windows XP" or what have you, even
though WinXP has been EOL for nearly 6 years - from when your son
entered a primary school to now graduated. In short, there's really
little reason to keep obsolete setup forever. – [105]iBug is
disappointed in SE 12 hours ago
* @user1751825 that's why I recommend enabling HTTP, because HTTP is
not insecure, like the older versions of TLS/OpenSSL are.
– [106]cnst 12 hours ago
* 3
@cnst HTTP is inherently insecure, because it is not encrypted at
all. It should not be enabled simply to support old insecure
clients. Allowing HTTP on a HTTPS enabled site, weakens the overall
security of the site because it allows protocol downgrade attacks,
and prevents the use of HSTS headers. – [107]user1751825 12 hours
ago
* It's also worth considering SE supports only a subset of browsers
in a subset of OSes.A significant number of the examples you gave
are not or might never be supported. And I doubt the move to http
fallback makes any sense at all. – [108]Journeyman Geek♦ 11 hours
ago
* 1
@user1751825 what you say doesn't make sense, because downgrade
attacks aren't possible if you already have HSTS, even if HTTP is
left undisturbed; and if you don't have HSTS, and are requesting
over HTTP already, then there's nothing to downgrade; just because
there's no encryption doesn't make HTTP insecure, either,
especially if it's all public information being transmitted (most
readers don't have accounts), and it's up to the user and their
provider on whether or not their traffic is modified (nation states
can already permanently block https and proxy https over http,
should they want). – [109]cnst 11 hours ago
* Plaintext HTTP is insecure in two ways - attacker can see what's
transmitted, and can also manipulate what's transmitted. It's
common in China where ISP endpoints insert junk ads into whatever
page viewed through HTTP ([110]ref). – [111]iBug is disappointed in
SE 9 hours ago
* @iBugisdisappointedinSE so, your solution is to self-destruct by
blocking HTTP in case they decide to block HTTPS? If the
nation-state provider controls the communication channel, they can
simply never allow HTTPS in the first place, never letting HSTS to
get installed, and always run a masquerade proxy on http to proxy
https content selectively; in all, plaintext HTTP is just life.
– [112]cnst 7 hours ago
* 2
If a state decided to block HTTPS completely, then it's not SE's
responsibility to maintain its accessibility by allowing plaintext.
HTTP is not life, it's obsolete. – [113]iBug is disappointed in SE
5 hours ago

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