F I D O N E W S -- Vol.11 No.41 (10-Oct-1994)

F I D O N E W S -- Vol.11 No.41 (10-Oct-1994)
+----------------------------+-----------------------------------------+
| A newsletter of the | ISSN 1198-4589 Published by: |
| FidoNet BBS community | "FidoNews" BBS |
| _ | +1-519-570-4176 |
| / \ | |
| /|oo \ | Small animal psychology and |
| (_| /_) | Spiritual guidance Department: |
| _`@/_ \ _ | Rev. Richard Visage 1:163/409 |
| | | \ \\ | |
| | (*) | \ )) | Editors: |
| |__U__| / \// | Donald Tees 1:221/192 |
| _//|| _\ / | Sylvia Maxwell 1:221/194 |
| (_/(_|(____/ | Tim |
| (jm) | Newspapers should have no friends. |
| | -- JOSEPH PULITZER |
+----------------------------+-----------------------------------------+
| Submission address: editors 1:1/23 |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| MORE addresses: |
| |
| Don -- [email protected] |
| Sylvia -- [email protected] |
| Tim Pozar -- [email protected] |
| David Deitch -- 1:133/411.411, [email protected] |
|
| submissions=> [email protected] |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| For information, copyrights, article submissions, |
| obtaining copies of fidonews or the internet gateway faq |
| please refer to the end of this file. |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
========================================================================
Table of Contents
========================================================================

1. Editorial..................................................... 2
2. Articles...................................................... 2
My Dear Doctor Logger,...................................... 2
A Warning to N700C.......................................... 4
Subject: ZEC election Candidate............................. 6
New Echo--COUPON............................................ 8
Hello,...................................................... 9
Subject: Formal Policy Complaint............................ 11
Subject: Formal Policy Complaint............................ 18
3. Fidonews Information.......................................... 19
FidoNews 11-41 Page: 2 10 Oct 1994

========================================================================
Editorial
========================================================================
Thank you to Darr Hoag of 1:2330/4, Jergen Smulders of
2:281/201, Jim Roberts of 1:266/25, and John Souvestre of
1:396/1 ... all four of whom wrote to us notes that their BBS's
have all the back issues of the Snooze. Thanks to John, 1:1/23
now also has a complete collection.

The last two articles of this issue have the same title.
Actually, it should have been the last three, but I concatonated
two to get them into the right order. It is one of those huge
missives that are basically twenty netmail messages quoting
everything from the NC of Butt-fuck Idaho to the president of
ford motors and whining for ten pages that nobody ever reads.

The essence of the article is the same as most of them.
Somebody annoyed someone, the someone whips out everything they
can find called policy, and starts reading fine print. Finally
they find a paragraph they can use, and issue a *POLICY
COMPLAINT*. This one basically *demands* that a moderator be
removed because (get this), he claims his LD on his income tax.
Yes indeed. That is comercial use, doncha know?

It is no secret that I am not a great lover of the law clerk
types that go to bed each night clutching their copies of policy
to their breasts while they dream dreams of Parry Mason of The
Net. But this is getting ridiculous, damnit. The *C positions
were created because we need basic work done (remember the
nodelist?). We have turned them into positions that only an
idiot would touch ... a position that has to spend hours and
hours dealing with snivelers who want to be polititions.

Now we need Echopol as well?
========================================================================
Articles
========================================================================
Patricia's Pain Palace
19A E. 235th
Washington, D.C.
The Excited States of Murrica

My Dear Doctor Logger,

What a wonderful city this is! Perhaps it's just the afterglow
apparent in a country that has just conquered another without so
much as a stubbed toe to show for it, but Washington is
positively ebullient at the moment. Last night, evidently in full
celebration, the residents put on what seemed to be a city-wide
multi-media show. It was a virtual serenade of burglar alarms and
police sirens accompanied by a low thrum of the deep bass beat of
rap music, which seems to come from everywhere, and is punctuated
by gunshots. What an amazing display.

FidoNews 11-41 Page: 3 10 Oct 1994

Signs of the famous American ingenuity are everywhere. Yesterday,
while circumnavigating the "beltway" (a huge strip of potholes
with outbreaks of occasional pavement which rings the city) I saw
a van that had a broken rear door latch. Would an American let
them flop about in the wind? No, they seek ways to solve such
problems quickly. This particular gent's solution was to put
handcuffs on the door handles. I love this country.

The Excited States is, however, becoming somewhat exclusive. I
had a most difficult time crossing the border, as the U.S.
customs service seemed to have mistakenly assumed that I might
have been associated with a politically incorrect importation
enterprise. Fortunately, I was able to hastily acquire a staff
position (with a modest expense account) with Rune's Rag, an
Electronic Magazine which emanates from 1:2601/522, and was let in
on the strength of my newly obtained Green Card. I won't even
begin to explain what Ms. LaBamba did to convince the officials
that she should be allowed entry, but I do believe that the
officials were so preoccupied by her suitcase full of interesting
lingerie and "toys" that the cars were lined up over five
kilometres due to the wait.

A Mr. Arnold, editor of said publication, arranged our
accommodation here at Patricia's Pain Palace, which is decorred
almost exclusively in deep red velveteen, which is much to Ms.
LaBamba's liking. I've also noticed that the clientele here is
rather chi-chi, given the number of limos that pull up to the
front. Patricia, whose 300 pounds is rather imposing, evidently
dishes out large dollops of discipline, which is heartily enjoyed
by her visitors, given the nightly din of thrashing, begging,
whining, and groans which emanate from below. Heaven only knows
what I'll report on in Rune's Rag after this visit.

Just thinking of thrashing, begging and whining brings Region 12
to mind. It is my understanding that the net250 policy complaint
tangle between L'il Matty, Junkyard Jim and Lighthands Luke will
now bounce into the sleepy vortex of our missing RC, Rick-Van-
Winkle Johnson. While all of them are providing the region with a
rich drama, the predictably absent response from the Non-RC will
likely be only a stepping stone until appeals fly westward
towards Satti and Lotus Land. It has crossed my mind that the
most common bind between all those concerned is that most of them
live in the basements of their mother's houses, with windows
covered with tin foil. I must peer into some message areas in the
genre of alt.er.boys, I'm sure that we'd find them all there in
some immodest capacity.

I have also discovered some leads while here. The events in Haiti
are no coincidence - all evidence shows that the invasion is a
mere coverup for the real coup that the CIA has pulled-- the
substitution of Rick-Van-Winkle with none other than Baby Doc
Duvalier. I shall discuss this further with my sources posthaste
and get some hard evidence.

I must go, Logger, I've let Ms. LaBamba out of my sight and I
FidoNews 11-41 Page: 4 10 Oct 1994

believe she is downstairs, flogging the French Ambassador with a
rather large cauliflower. As your spiritual advisor, might I
suggest that you should never trust a woman in leopard skin
tights if she's carrying a huge legume.

Religiously yours,

Rev. Richard Visage
Spiritual Advisor, Region 12

----------------------------------------------------------------------

A Warning to N700C
Chris Leung (6:700/703 aka 6:700/0)

As netmail messages have been sent to current sysops to ask if they
are still willing to join Net700 and observe Policy4, the following
message is received from one of the veteran Net700 sysops. It is
quoted here for other *C's reference.

(666) 03 Oct 94 22:02:02 Rcvd: Tue 4 Oct 12:16a
By: xxxx xxxx (True name not revealed here)
To: Chris Leung
Re: Node Number

Hello, Chris!

As you have proceeded and removed my node numbers from the
nodelist (against a lot of advice I may add) I have a couple of
questions for you

1. On what grounds do you base this removal on my nodes ?

2. When do you intend to reinstate them ?

I have complained about your actions to the new IC and demanded
your removal from this post on grounds of gross incompetence.....

I have read and reread the Policy4 and I cannot see where it
says that you have the authority to do this removal you are only
allowed to assign nodes....

If you do not reinstate my nodes I will be taking this further
to the courts.... as you are denying me my rights to freedom of
information without good reason.... This will cost you a lot of
money in the long run defending yourself. You really ought to
think this one out again and do it quickly.

By the way your actions do not seem to have had the desired
effect the old fido net still seems to be functioning very well
the old net700 file has all of the old nodes and we are still
using them.... whether this allows us to communicate overseas is
another matter but you have not managed to do what you set out
to do....

FidoNews 11-41 Page: 5 10 Oct 1994

===End of Message=======
x x x xxxxxxxxxxxx xxx
(852) xxx-xxxx or xxx-xxxx (Personal information of the writer
16,000+ files 100+ msg areas not revealed here)
======================

(Comments from Chris Leung:- A new application package was sent
to current fido sysops in mid-September. All current sysops are
asked to complete a form and return it to me by October 14, 1994
to confirm their willingness to join Net700 and observe Policy4.
That form serves also to update all nodes' information as the
former NC did not hand it over to me. )

Umm... if a NC is put into jail simply because he is
implementing the procedures of a Policy which all participants
are expected to observe, will the ZC and RC be willing to let
him/her continue his/her NC duty... in the jail......?

This letter reminds me of all great heroes who sacrificed
themselves for the ideal which has long been chased after......
:-I

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jon Sabol
From: David Finster
To: FidoNet

A message entitled 'The Facts of Life' with the author of Thom
Henderson recently swept across the net. This message was in fact
not penned by Mr. Henderson. It was an attempt by ourselves to imply
that the recent illicit activities taking place in the net were
caused by Mr. Henderson. This has never been proven. The message
in question was in fact written by the two of us. We have no excuse
other than our own childish stupidity. This has resulted in our own
discredit. We can only offer our sincere apologies to Mr.
Wong and Mr. Henderson. In addition, we apologize to the entire
network for our infantile behavior. This could only take place given
the current level of distrust and deceit in the network. In light
of the actions we have taken, and the blow that our credibility has
taken, we find it necessary to step down from our respective positions
in the network. The positions of "Opus_INFO 'here'", National
Echomail Coordinator, and Sysop Echomail Moderator are now vacant.
We trust you will make the proper choices for the new appointees for
these positions.

Sincerely,
David Finster
Jon Sabol

From: Tom Jennings, 1:125/111
To: Butch Walker, 1:161/1, NERD'S NOOK #1 Opus, Concord CA
Reply To #56
Subj: personal note
FidoNews 11-41 Page: 6 10 Oct 1994

Well, that thing by Finster ... I know he may be a friend of yours,
and I wont say Im glad, but I feel somewhat satisfied tat they manged
managed to go one step too far. Finster did some terrible attacks on
me and others, including Ken Kaplan, as low as racial slurs in some
cases. Very bad vibes to say the least. He made things up from whole
cloth. I skip this, its old news, old sores. Just a reminder that
things like this have happened, info was fabricated, and that people
should watch what people DO, not what they MIGHT or COULD do. This
isnt "to" you, this is just a passing comment, really! There's to
many that would understand it, thats all, since very few people around
today saw that stuff. Thats all!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Area Badmail, Msg#1, Oct-01-94 20:47:50
From: Ken Wilson
Subject: ZEC election Candidate

As you all know from my previous messages in here a couple of
weeks ago, and announcements in the Snooooz, there is a ZEC
election underway.

This is a candidate message (the only one I have seen so far)
from one of the ZEC candidates. Here it is for you viewing.
Since I must vote later this week, any comments and direction
are solicited as always.

* Message Forwarded on <Oct 01 20:47> by Ken Wilson (1:12/12)

---------- Forwarded Message Begins ----------

While serving as the elected REC of Region 19 for the past 2
years, I have come to the conclusion that it's time that some
things change regarding the responsibilities of the Z1EC. It is
no longer sufficient for the Z1EC to act primarily as the
overseer of the Zone 1 Backbone. It's time to expand the role
of the Z1EC to concentrate more on global matters and, working
with the other ZECs, widen it's scope to recognize the
coordination needs of all distribution systems within FidoNet.

These are my thoughts regarding what I see as the duties /
responsibilities of the next Zone 1 Echo Coordinator:

To reinforce the philosophy that the Fidonet EchoMail
Coordinator structure exists for the COORDINATION of EchoMail as
it moves through FidoNet and not for the CONTROL of that
EchoMail movement.

To work with the other EchoMail Coordinators to ensure that
every node operator in Zone 1 has access to each and every
Fidonet EchoMail Conference and to coordinate feeds in such a
fashion as to focus on economics and reliability.

To work with the Zone Echo Coordinators of each and every other
FidoNews 11-41 Page: 7 10 Oct 1994

Zone in the pursuit of streamlined and efficient EchoMail
movement around the globe.

To work toward creating an EchoPol.

This EchoMail Policy must be the one referred to in Policy 4,
Section 9.9, which, "..extends and does not contradict general
policy.." This EchoMail Policy must apply to all of Fidonet and
therefore address itself to only the technical aspects of
EchoMail distribution which all Zones have in common. This
would be a coordinated effort enlisting the assistance and
participation of all ZECs.

It must define the duties and responsibilities of each Echo
Coordinator position and, once and for all, have those positions
ratified and formally recognized within Fidonet. It must be
presented to the IC and be placed on the table for a "vote of
adoption" by the majority of the Fidonet *Cs.

I have already initiated a dialogue with the ZC's and ZEC's of
all the Fidonet zones and find them generally receptive as long
as we in Zone 1 do not attempt to dictate our customs to them.

To redefine the relationship between the Z1EC and what's
presently referred to as, "The Zone 1 Fido Backbone".

Customarily, the Zone 1 Echo Coordinator has spent the bulk of
his time and resources administering what's commonly referred to
as "The Zone 1 Fidonet Backbone." It's time to recognize that
"Backbone" for what it really is: 3 Fido SysOps doing the best
they can to provide but ONE of the many EchoMail distribution
systems available to FidoNet. The Z1EC must concern himself
with EchoMail coordination throughout all of FidoNet, and as it
affects Zone 1, focusing less attention on only 1 distribution
system.

To discuss the possibility/necessity of creating a position of
"International EchoMail Coordinator."

With the adoption of a Fido-Wide EchoMail Policy, it *may* be
necessary to create a position to coordinate EchoMail movement
throughout the world, and to more closely parallel FidoNet
general policy.

To discuss the possibility of creating an "EchoMail Technical
Standards Committee."

Due to the ever increasing bulk and complexity of worldwide
EchoMail movement, it *may* be beneficial to FidoNet to move the
responsibility of maintaining and developing technical standards
*as they relate to EchoMail* out from under the umbrella of the
FTSC. It *might* serve FidoNet well to create an "ETSC"
composed of EchoMail software developers and users. Hopefully,
this committee would spawn pro-active development of new tools
and the documenting of present and future 'standards'.
FidoNews 11-41 Page: 8 10 Oct 1994

If elected, these are the points on which I will focus.

Thank you,

AllTheBest,
Bruce

----------------------------------------------------------------------

New Echo--COUPON

by Lawrence Kellie
COUPON available now.

As I was perusing several echoes the other day, several people
mentioned wanting to trade coupons. It occurred to me, that I
hadn't seen any echo on the subject of coupons, rebates, or refunds
(from hereon referred to just as coupon[s]).

Hence COUPON!

At this time the traffic is rather light. We have a total of
five nodes, counting myself.

Topology

1:343/164 (WA) ---------------------- 1:3404/155 (BC)
|
|
|- 1:343/58 (WA)
| |
| |
| - 1:343/182 (WA)
|
|- 1:2613/482 (NY)
|

The echo rules are still evolving. One improvement during the first
few days is the handling of U.S. vs. Canada coupons.

Rules

The COUPON Echo
Rules and Guidelines

This conference is moderated by Lawrence Kellie
FidoNet 1:343/164

This conference will be a RELAXED forum for discussion of coupons,
refunds, and rebates with the emphasis on locating those much
needed coupons/forms/rebates. We will help each other obtain
what is needed to be a successful refunder.

1. Avoid excessive quoting. Try to quote enough of the message so that
FidoNews 11-41 Page: 9 10 Oct 1994

the person you are responding to understands the reply and can relate
it to what was being discussed.

2. Users are requested to please consider both the QUALITY and
QUANTITY of what they post, keeping in mind the costs incurred
for moving the mail.

3. DON'T be annoying or easily annoyed. If you feel that someone is
out of line, please make the Moderator aware of the situation through
Netmail, and allow them to follow through. DON'T FLAME.

4. Inclusion of the area for which the coupons/refunds are valid is
important. Therefore, information such as "For US, only," "For
CDN only," "For ME, NH, VT only" type of information is expected
in one's coupon/rebate posting.

5. Have fun!

In other words.... Be nice. Play fair.

These Guidelines are subject to change at any time.
The moderator's word is the final authority.

Lawrence Kellie
Moderator

Connection guidelines

I at 1:343/164 and Rusty Stevens at 1:3404/155 are willing to set
up anyone who is interested in polling for the echo.

Join in this echo. It is one that will gain in popularity and
will be a real offering to your users.

Lawrence Kellie (aka LaRK)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brandon Carnahan(1:114/271)
To: Editors (1:1/23)
Subject: Submission

Hello,

Sometimes reflecting on things said in the past can adjust our outlook
on the present and future. This is public material far as I know.

RBBS-PC SYSOP's DESIDERATA
==========================

Go gently among the messages and comments that have been left and
remember what peace there may be in silence. As far as possible
without surrender be on good terms with all your users. Speak
your truth quietly and clearly affirming your rights under the
FidoNews 11-41 Page: 10 10 Oct 1994

First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States. Listen
to what your users say -- even the dull and the ignorant, for
they too have their way to find. There are no stupid questions
-- only stupid answers (the ones that don't answer the question).

Avoid loud and aggressive persons who seek to belittle what you
have made of RBBS-PC as they are vexations to the spirit and of
no consequence as they only have stature by tearing down what
others have built. If you compare your RBBS-PC with others, you
may become vain and bitter; for there always will be greater and
lesser RBBS-PC's than yours. Enjoy what you have achieved as
well as what you plan to achieve.

Keep interested in your own goals, however humble; they are your
only real possession amid the changing fortunes of time.
Exercise caution in running your RBBS-PC; for the world is full
of those would seek to crash your system. But let this not blind
or embitter you to what virtue there is; the vast majority of
your users strive for high ideals; and everywhere the PC
community is full of their heroism.

Be yourself. Especially, do not feign superiority. Neither be
cynical about your users; for in the face of all adversity and
disenchantment they are your strength.

Take kindly the counsel of others, gracefully surrendering your
prejudices and preconceived ideas to discover truth. Nurture
strength of spirit to endure the misfortunes of hardware and
software failures. Beyond a reasonable expectation of personal
excellence be gentle with yourself.

You and your RBBS-PC are an expression of all our freedoms, no
less than the printed word; you have a right to be here. And
whether or not it is clear to you, the future is unfolding as it
should because you are here.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be,
and whatever effort your RBBS-PC takes or aspirations you have
for it, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

Be proud of those whose company you keep -- all those that are
running or have ever run RBBS-PC. Some have stopped running any
system; some have gone on to other systems; some have written
their own systems. All but a very few have kept the faith with
RBBS-PC. They have not allowed RBBS-PC's source code to be
stolen and sold; they have protected the licenses and copyrights
of others and in so doing they have protected their own; they
have fostered the free exchange of information; and they have
remembered those who went before them.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, the world of
electronic bulletin boards is still beautiful because so many
have kept faith with what RBBS-PC is about. Be careful. Strive
to be happy and enjoy.......

FidoNews 11-41 Page: 11 10 Oct 1994

Tom Mack
July 28, 1986

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: The Terminator (1:2805/1)
To: Editors (1:1/23)
Re: Formal Policy Complaint

Enclosed is a copy of a message I recently sent to Adrian Walker,
the interim ZEC. Please publish it in this week's edition of FidoSnooze.

Brent Hamm
Network Echo Coordinator
Network 2805

To: Adrian Walker, Zone1 Echo Coord (1:1/200)
Re: Formal Policy Complaint

cc: Bob Satti (1:153/6), Jerry Seward, Michael Walsh (1:13/0)
cc: Mike Hudson, Jeff Cook

Dear Mr. Walker:

I formally request that Jeff Cook be immediately removed as
Moderator of VIRUS_INFO. Mr. Cook is clearly in violation of
Policy 4, Section 1.3.6 which I again quote:

1.3.6 Commercial Use

FidoNet is an amateur network. Participants spend their own time
and money to make it work for the good of all the users. It is not
appropriate for a commercial enterprise to take advantage of these
volunteer efforts to further their own business interests. On the
other hand, FidoNet provides a convenient and effective means for
companies and users to exchange information, to the mutual benefit
of all.

I have concrete proof that Mr. Cook is using VIRUS_INFO to
further his own commercial interests. Below is a copy of a
netmail message sent to me by Mr. Cook wherein he brags of his
moderation activities as being "tax deductible." I am not the
only person to whom Mr. Cook has made this boast. If necessary,
I'm certain that I can provide many examples from others,
however I feel that it is important that you investigate this
allegation yourself.

(71) Tue 4 Oct 94 21:51 Cost: 15
By: Jeff Cook, Thunderbyte Support USA (1:2628/[email protected])
To: Brent Hamm
Re: yawn...
St: Pvt Kill
--------------------------------------------------------------------
@MSGID: 1:2628/[email protected] 8a95b1df
@REPLY: 1:14/609@fidonet 8a8b07e5
FidoNews 11-41 Page: 12 10 Oct 1994

@PID: FM 2.02

Hello little boy,

> You needn't worry about removing VIRUS_INFO from the
> backbone. I'm going to remove it for you.

Yeah, right.

Well, I played you idiots like a fiddle. True to my prediction,
your lover left a message on my company's answering machine. Ha
ha ha!!! Children are so easy to predict.

> The Terminator
> Moderator, VIRUS_INFO

Big deal.

I sincerely hope that my life never becomes so boring that
pulling your childish bullshit pranks becomes fun. If it does, I
hope someone will have the courtesy to push me in front of a
truck - as I'd sure hate to wake up thinking "...uh yup, I sure
did fix that moderator, uh yup...". Obviously, a moron like you
has no life. BTW, doesn't it just torque your shorts knowing
that I'm right - AGAIN!

Feel free to keep up the correspondence - my responses are
tax-deductible.

Best regards,

Jeff Cook
Moderator, Virus_Info

VIRUS_INFO is nothing more than a blatantly commercial
advertisement for ThunderByte AntiVirus. By his own admission,
Jeff Cook considers his responsibilities as Moderator of
VIRUS_INFO as nothing more than a tax deduction.

ECHOPOL1 is somewhat vague and contradictory, however I shall
quote the germane portions with appropriate comments.

7. REMOVAL OF AN ECHOMAIL CONFERENCE MODERATOR: An Echomail
Conference Moderator may be removed from their position by a three
fourths (3/4) vote of the *EC structure voting. This vote must be
carried out in a fair and decent manner while giving at least ten
(10) days notice to the entire *EC structure of the upcoming vote.
The ZEC shall notify the RECs who in turn shall notify the NECs in
their region of any upcoming vote. Notice must be given via
NetMail. Additional postings in such conferences as COORD and
regional conferences are encourgaged.

Apparently, the Zone Echo Coordinator is the only person whom
can schedule a recall election of a Moderator. Accordingly,
this message is addressed to you and I hereby request that you
FidoNews 11-41 Page: 13 10 Oct 1994

immediately schedule a recall election to remove Jeff Cook as
Moderator of VIRUS_INFO.

6. DUTIES OF ECHOMAIL CONFERENCE MODERATOR:

Echo conference complaints from a Sysop should be filed at the net
level (NEC) or if the complaining party is an independent node
then with their REC. The NEC or REC receiving such a complaint
must take action in accordance with the provisions of this
echomail policy.

Under this provision of of ECHOPOL1, I am formally filing
complaints with Mike Hudson, Network Echo Coordinator of Network
2805, and with Jerry Seward, Region Echo Coordinator of Region
13. Mr. Cook is in direct violation of ECHOPOL1, Part V,
Sections 1 and 14, which I will also quote:

V. STATEMENT OF POLICIES

1. BASIC ECHOMAIL POLICY: The basic policy of Echomail is to
promote communication in Echomail Conferences in a lawful,
friendly manner consistent with the general principles of FidoNet.

14. DEFAMATORY POSTING: The posting of any DEFAMATORY MESSAGE
other than in conferences dedicated to this purpose (i.e. FLAME)
shall lead to disciplinary action as described previously in this
document.

Mr. Cook's flagrant use of VIRUS_INFO to promote his own
business activities is clearly a violation of "the general
principles of FidoNet." Secondly, Mr. Cook has used his position
as Moderator of VIRUS_INFO as a pulpit from which to attack,
insult, and denigrate the authors of competing antivirus
products. Bill Lambdin at 1:157/200 and Zvi Netiv at 2:403/250
can verify the veracity of this statement. Mr. Lambdin is the
American Support Site for F-Prot Antivirus and Mr. Netiv is the
author of Invircible Antivirus. In addition, the tone of Mr.
Cook's netmail message to me is indicative of the manner in
which he treats users of VIRUS_INFO who happen to disagree with
his belief that ThunderByte AntiVirus is the best virus scanner
ever made. Furthermore, Mr. Cook has used his position as
Moderator of VIRUS_INFO to ridicule and belittle countless
FidoNet SysOps who run Virus Exchange Bulletin Board Systems.
Finally, the very name of the ECHOTAG, VIRUS_INFO, is incredibly
misleading. The only "information" allowed to be posted in
VIRUS_INFO is statements praising ThunderByte or condemning its
competitors. Opposing viewpoints are immediately silenced, a
policy which is hardly consistent with the general principles of
FidoNet.

Once again, I would urge you to conduct your own investigation of these
accusations.

I am filing these complaints under the provisions of both Policy
4, Section 9.9 and ECHOPOL1, Part V, which I will also quote:
FidoNews 11-41 Page: 14 10 Oct 1994

9.9 Echomail

Echomail is an important and powerful force in FidoNet. For the
purposes of Policy Disputes, echomail is simply a different flavor
of netmail, and is therefore covered by Policy.

VI. ENFORCEMENT

Enforcement of this policy document shall be under the provisions
of General FidoNet policy. Complaints concerning Echomail
violations defined under this policy may be filed by the aggrieved
individual, the conference moderator or by any level of Echomail
Coordinator to the appropriate *C level. All complaints made
pursuant to this policy must be made within 60 days of the date of
occurrence or discovery. Complaints shall be filed under the
provisions of General Fidonet Policy, with a copy to the
respective *EC.

Under these provisions, I am filing a formal complaint with
Michael Walsh, Region Coordinator of Region 13, on the basis of
the evidence presented above. I would again ask that you conduct
your own investigation of these charges.

Sincerely yours,

Brent Hamm
Network Echo Coordinator
Network 2805
Area Netmail, Msg#440, Oct-06-94 23:39:04
From: The Terminator (1:2805/1)
To: Editor (1:1/23)
Subject: Formal Policy Complaint

* Originally by The Terminator, 1:2805/1@fidonet
* Originally to Bob Satti, 1:153/6
* Originally dated 6 Oct 1994, 22:30
FLAGS DIR

* Original to: Bob Satti (1:153/6)

cc: Adrian Walker, Jerry Seward, Mike Hudson

Dear Mr. Satti:

Below is a copy of a decision rendered by Michael Walsh, Region
13 Coordinator, in one of the complaints I filed. Rather than
waste time arguing with an obvious moron like Walsh, I have to
decided to appeal his decision directly to you. I believe that
you already have copies of all the pertinent information and,
unlike Walsh, understand the issues at hand. I will respect
whatever decision you make, however I would appreciate it if you
would provide me with the reasoning behind your decision.
Despite Walsh's obtuseness, Policy 4, Section 9.9, clearly
provides for ECHOPOL1 as demonstrated by the following quote:
FidoNews 11-41 Page: 15 10 Oct 1994

9.9 Echomail

Echomail is an important and powerful force in FidoNet. For the
purposes of Policy Disputes, echomail is simply a different flavor
of netmail, and is therefore covered by Policy. By its nature,
echomail places unique technical and social demands on the net over
and above those covered by this version of Policy. In recognition
of this, an echomail policy which extends (and does not contradict)
general Policy, maintained by the Echomail Coordinators, and
ratified by a process similar to that of this document, is
recognized by the FidoNet Coordinators as a valid structure for
dispute resolution on matters pertaining to echomail. At some
future date the echomail policy document may be merged with this
one.

As I mentioned in my original complaint, ECHOPOL1 is somewhat
vague and contradictory. This would be a good opportunity to
clarify its meaning and intent. As for Walsh's claim that I
have not attempted to resolve this dispute, I would remind you
that Jeff Cook called me by voice last night and made threats of
bodily harm. He is completely irrational and there is no way
for me to resolve this dispute outside of a formal policy
complaint. Since this is such an important and complicated
issue, I would ask you to take all the time that you need to
render a decision and to consult with the *C and *EC structure.
I'm sure that the question of Commercial Use will be hotly
debated in ZEC and in FidoSnooze for quite some time. It would
behoove us all to watch the debate.

Respectfully yours,

Brent Hamm
Network Echo Coordinator
Network 2805

By: Michael Walsh, Mid Atlantic (1:13/0)
To: Brent Hamm
Re: Formal Policy Complaint
St: Pvt Crash
88>
-----------------------------------------------------------------
@INTL 1:2805/1 1:13/0
cc: Bob Satti 1:153/6, Jerry Seward, Mike Hudson, Jeff Cook

cc: Adrian Walker 1/200

Weirdness... he's filing the complaint with me, but addresses
his message to Adrian?

> Dear Mr. Walker:

Nothing personal, Mr. Terminator, but I have a real problem
taking you seriously here. Just who the hell is "The
Terminator"?
FidoNews 11-41 Page: 16 10 Oct 1994

At the end of this very long message, you state that you're
filing a complaint with me, yet the message seems to be
addressed to the interim-ZEC.

According to the nodelist, you are Brent Hamm (if the origin
address on the message is correct) and I do not appreciate being
forced to look you up.

With that said:

> I formally request that Jeff Cook be immediately removed
> as Moderator of VIRUS_INFO. Mr. Cook is clearly in
> violation of Policy 4, Section 1.3.6 which I again quote:

On what basis would you suggest a moderator be removed? I see
you quote from a document called ECHOPOL1 later on in this
message, but I can't observe it's conditions as a part of a
complaint because this is an unratified document -- at this
point in time, it is nothing more than words. I can only
address FidoNet Policy 4.07, dated 6/9/89.

> 1.3.6 Commercial Use

[text deleted; we all have a copy]

> I have concrete proof that Mr. Cook is using VIRUS_INFO
> to further his own commercial interests. Below is a
> copy of a netmail message sent to me by Mr. Cook wherein
> he brags of his moderation activities as being "tax
> deductible." I am not the only person to whom Mr. Cook
> has made this boast. If necessary, I'm certain that I
> can provide many examples from others, however I feel
> that it is important that you investigate this
> allegation yourself.

[message deleted; we all have the original message]

> VIRUS_INFO is nothing more than a blatantly commercial
> advertisement for ThunderByte AntiVirus. By his own
> admission, Jeff Cook considers his responsibilities as
> Moderator of VIRUS_INFO as nothing more than a tax
> deduction.

Interesting, but hardly proof of "commercial use." The second
paragraph of section 1.3.6 outlines what "commercial use" is; in
my opinion, someone claiming that they make "tax deductions" on
the expenses incurred in moving netmail isn't germane.

What would be is if he used netmail to take and deliver orders
for product, and that netmail was moved at others' expense; that
would be one example. Another would be mail to an employee about
company-internal business, or what I call "propaganda" --
literature designed to further his business interests which
serves no purpose to the members of FidoNet.
FidoNews 11-41 Page: 17 10 Oct 1994

If he makes information available to members which they find
useful, then he is not meeting any definition of "commercial
use" that I can see.

> Apparently, the Zone Echo Coordinator is the only person
> whom can schedule a recall election of a Moderator.
> Accordingly, this message is addressed to you and I
> hereby request that you immediately schedule a recall
> election to remove Jeff Cook as Moderator of VIRUS_INFO.

Adrian cannot do so, at least as far as I can tell, based on Policy.

> Under this provision of of ECHOPOL1, I am formally
> filing complaints with Mike Hudson, Network Echo
> Coordinator of Network 2805, and with Jerry Seward,
> Region Echo Coordinator of Region 13.

Neither can these gentlemen act.

> Mr. Cook's flagrant use of VIRUS_INFO to promote his own
> business activities is clearly a violation of "the
> general principles of FidoNet."

What are the "general principles of FidoNet" that you refer to?

> Under these provisions, I am filing a formal complaint
> with Michael Walsh, Region Coordinator of Region 13, on
> the basis of the evidence presented above. I would again
> ask that you conduct your own investigation of these
> charges.

Here's the rub: now you address this to me.

Ugh.

Okay, let's have at it.

1) As mentioned above, I see no proof of commercial use.

2) I see a failure to provide substantiating evidence of an
attempt to resolve as detailed in section 9.1 of Policy 4.07.

The complaint is therefore dismissed.

---Michael Walsh
R13C
FidoNews 11-41 Page: 18 10 Oct 1994

From: The Terminator (1:2805/1)
To: Editor (1:1/23)
Subject: Formal Policy Complaint

* Originally by The Terminator, 1:2805/1@fidonet
* Originally to Adrian Walker, 1:153/752
* Originally dated 6 Oct 1994, 23:20
FLAGS DIR

* Original to: Adrian Walker (1:153/752)

cc: Jerry Seward, Mike Hudson, Bob Satti (1:153/6)

Gentlemen:

Since I am sure you have all received copies of Walsh's
decision, I will not bother quoting it here. I am writing to
remind you gentlemen that the complaints I have filed with you
were based upon ECHOPOL1 and not upon Policy 4. In particular,
the request for a recall election of Jeff Cook as Moderator of
VIRUS_INFO was filed with Mr. Walker under the provisions of
Part IV, Section 7 which I quote:

IV. APPOINTMENT AND ELECTION OF ECHOMAIL COORDINATORS AND
MODERATORS

7. REMOVAL OF AN ECHOMAIL CONFERENCE MODERATOR: An Echomail
Conference Moderator may be removed from their position by a three
fourths (3/4) vote of the *EC structure voting. This vote must be
carried out in a fair and decent manner while giving at least ten
(10) days notice to the entire *EC structure of the upcoming vote.
The ZEC shall notify the RECs who in turn shall notify the NECs in
their region of any upcoming vote. Notice must be given via
NetMail. Additional postings in such conferences as COORD and
regional conferences are encourgaged.

The complaint I filed with Mr. Hudson is filed under the provisions of
ECHOPOL1, Part III, Section 6, which I also quote:

III. DUTIES OF ECHOMAIL COORDINATORS

6. DUTIES OF ECHOMAIL CONFERENCE MODERATOR:

Echo conference complaints from a Sysop should be filed at the net
level (NEC) or if the complaining party is an independent node
then with their REC. The NEC or REC receiving such a complaint
must take action in accordance with the provisions of this
echomail policy.

Walsh's apparent lack of comprehension of echomail policy
notwithstanding, Mr. Walker and Mr. Hudson are required by
ECHOPOL1 to render decisions. I am sending a copy of this
message to Mr. Seward in the event it becomes necessary to
appeal Mr. Hudson's decision. Walsh's decision in my complaint
FidoNews 11-41 Page: 19 10 Oct 1994

against Jeff Cook filed under the provisions of Policy 4 is
completely irrelevant to the complaints I have filed with you
under the provisions of ECHOPOL1.

As I stated in my appeal of Walsh's decision to Bob Satti, this
is an important and complex issue and I would ask you to take
all the time you need to render your decisions. I would also
ask you to investigate the charges I have made rather than
summarily dismissing them merely because I choose to use an
alias and to associate myself with people whom Walsh despises.
In short, I am asking you to base your decisions upon the merits
of my arguments and not upon my radiant personality:)

Brent Hamm
Network Echo Coordinator
Network 2805

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